Why negativity about AADs is disturbing

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me.

So how does a Cypres make it OK to "do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly"

Kallend:

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I've yet to meet one of these people that some claim are becoming the norm.

Can't say that anymore.

Derek

[Frenchy68 0]

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My "newbie" logic on this one almost tells me that if I was going to do something dumb, like pull at 1500' intentionaly, I would be better off turning my cypress off for that jump. I would be more concerned about going a "hair" lower than I planned and getting a cypress fire 2 out. Please no one think that I would do this, I'm just trying to understand.

My newbie take on that: don't plan on pulling at 1,500ft.
I'll take a 2 out over 0 out any day. I'll take a main/reserve entanglement over nothing out any day. The worse case scenario in either one is death. But IMN(ewbie)O, a 2 out entanglement gives me a (however slim it may be) fighting chance. The ground doesn't.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[sunshine 2]

Deleted cause sometimes it's just not worth it....

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[crutch 0]

Kallend, I think you are misunderstand completely wjat they are trying to say. I have been involved in this discussion more than once and have to side with the people you are talking about. This is my example....and airtec used it in one of their ads years ago.

A skydiver exits the airplane and on the exit his cut-away handle gets pulled. He continues in freefall, not pulling the main because he realizes it is going go be released. So he skydives until his AAD fires, stating he knew it would save his life.

Now, does this person need to be skydivcing anymore, not at my drop zone! Yes the AAD kept him in the gene pool, when stupidity should have had him eliminated from it! These are the people that are skydiving nowadays, and there are more of them.

Honestly, the best thing airtec has done is made many more people aware of pull altitudes because of the fear of two situations. Skydivers as a whole are pulling higher now than they did twenty years ago, this has made a much bigger impact than AADs.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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On the off chance they cork and knock me unconscious, i'll have a better chance of survival with a cypres, than with nothing at all.

You are relying on an AAD to offset the risk that you normally wouldn't accept. Making jumps that you consider to risky simply because you have a Cypres defeats the purpose of the Cypres.

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However, it's my decision and i don't have to justify myself to anyone. Especially someone that has chosen to quit the sport yet still continues to hand out on dzcom.

Did everything I learned in my 8 years and 3333 jumps disapear when I quit jumping? I still know more about skydiving than you do. I think you just don't like my opinion, so you attack me. Attack my opinion, not me.

Derek

[sunshine 2]

Deleted cause sometimes it's just not worth it....

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[skybytch 259]

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Did everything I learned in my 8 years and 3333 jumps disapear when I quit jumping?

This is kinda like when I quit selling gear - I can tell you all about what was available in the summer of 2004 but I can't tell you squat about things that have been introduced since then. The industry went on without me... kinda like the sport has gone on without you. Thanks for playing. Game over.

[kallend 1,635]

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The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me.

So how does a Cypres make it OK to "do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly"


Derek

That's what freefly coaches do, Derek. They jump with people that are liable to cork. And after what happened to Faulkner, IMO any freefly coach that jumps with newbies without a switched-on CYPRES is crazy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,635]

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>Also, There's *always* a risk of it. If someone tracks off and goes
>flat and smacks into someone that's still head down, it sucks, and
>shouldn't happen but it does, and there's always that risk.

Of course. But the odds of that happening are not fixed. If I am at Rantoul, and I get on a 40-way made up of people who have never met each other before, there is going to be a high risk that there are people on that dive who can't track well, or who can't control their approaches, or whatever. If I'm on Kate's 100 way sequentials, the odds of those people being there are a lot lower. Might a collision still occur? Yes. But the odds are a lot lower.

Compare it to drunk driving. Might you lose control and hit someone at any time? Yes. You could get stung in the eye by a bee and lose control, killing innocent bystanders. But the odds of that are low. Now, if you're drunk, the odds of killing someone else are a lot higher. But it would be silly to say "Hey, I can always lose control and kill someone, so it doesn't matter if I'm drunk." If you choose to not drive when you are drunk, you are less likely to injure someone else, and making that decision to not drive is by far the best decision. Similarly, making a decision to not jump with certain groups of people would be a wise decision, if those people pose an increased risk.

>The only way to avoid the risk altogether is to avoid skydiving.

Agreed. But the wise skydiver chooses what risks to take carefully, and does not use excuses (safety equipment, desire to be seen as cool, wanting to be on TV, whatever) as reasons to take risks they otherwise would not take.

Fact is, our entire rig is safety equipment, from the harness to the riser covers.

I really don't think you realize the subtle negativity of the message you are giving. In essence you are challenging new skydivers to jump without a CYPRES to prove that they are up to it. You may not think you are, but you are.

If you would take the CYPRES out of the equation and simply say "Do not go on any skydive unless you are willing to accept the risk of death or injury, and that risk increases as the skydive gets more complex" I would agree with you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

"The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me."

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That's what freefly coaches do, Derek. They jump with people that are liable to cork.

I know that is what they do, but if the risks aren't worth it, a Cypres shouldn't make it worth the risk.

Derek

[Praetorian 1]

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***That's what freefly coaches do, Derek. They jump with people that are liable to cork.

I know that is what they do, but if the risks aren't worth it, a Cypres shouldn't make it worth the risk.



Um, while I stick with my personal position that I will not do a jump with that I would not do without ...

I SEE the logic of a skydiver who has never worried about not pulling for himself adding an AAD to OFFSET the increased risk of not pulling for himself when he adds a student who could kill him... is the aad makeing this dive safer than his normal .. NO is it REDUCING the risk he has added .. well based on track record(of modern AADS) YES So say his chance of death went up 20%(random ass number) when he added the student, and because 10% of that is from the student rendering him unable to pull .. yet still alive... and the cypress is 90% or more, likely to solve that problem he has reduced the risk to 11% insted of 20% for most skydivers this 9% change is MORE than the change adding a Reserve to their gear adds. would I be happy jumping my risk up 11% over normal NO but I'd be happier than 20% how about you?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I SEE the logic of a skydiver who has never worried about not pulling for himself adding an AAD to OFFSET the increased risk of not pulling for himself when he adds a student who could kill him.

I disagree for the same reason I don't drive any faster or take more chances because our new car has side impact airbags.

Derek

[Praetorian 1]

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I disagree for the same reason I don't drive any faster or take more chances because our new car has side impact airbags.

And I'm right there with you, but the fact remains doing dangerous things is safER with safety equptment..

NO one considers Formula 1 or indy racing "safe" but the drivers are safER because of their safety gear.

There is no dumb ass skydiver out there who is knowingly passing his skills because he has a cypres who would not do the same stupid thing without the cypres .. I suspect the diver who replies "thats what my (NAME AAD HERE) is for " is joking and has already considered the risk, or is playing it off so he wont have to discuss the risks he is taking and etiher be pulled from the load by the DZO or admit to himself that he is cracked and doing something ass stupid... but I'll tell you what If he is going to do something ass stupid anyway I'd rather he have an AAD.

The driving force behind a LOT of stupid stuff is showing off macho crap .. please don't encourage a situation where dumb ass X says with pride " yep AND I'm doing it WITHOUT an AAD" insted of the current Macho copout of "thats what my AAD is for"

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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And I'm right there with you, but the fact remains doing dangerous things is safER with safety equptment.

I agree, but I don't think one shoud increase their risk level beyond what they feel is acceptable based on their safety gear. Should I go run class 5 rapids in a kayak even though I don't know how to roll one because I have the latest in PFD's, helmets, etc? Does all that gear make me safe? I don't think I should. I should first learn how to roll a kayak, etc, getting good enough to handle class 5 rapids without needing a PFD or helmet, then wear that stuff for the rapids. That is being safe.

Safety gear doesn't mean one is safe.

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There is no dumb ass skydiver out there who is knowingly passing his skills because he has a cypres who would not do the same stupid thing without the cypres

Well, unfortunately there is. There are even more doing it unknowningly.

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please don't encourage a situation where dumb ass X says with pride " yep AND I'm doing it WITHOUT an AAD" insted of the current Macho copout of "thats what my AAD is for"

I am trying to do the opposite, don't do anything you wouldn't do without a Cypres with a cypres.

Derek

[hookitt 0]

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I am trying to do the opposite, don't do anything you wouldn't do without a Cypres with a cypres.

Tell that to Glen Sugden. He was knocked out on a 100 way and woke up in the hospital with a swollen head. Once the Cypres became available, he didn't jump without it. Had he jumped with out it, he'd be dead. He was a very competant safe skydiver and broke someones leg with his melon.

You know ... I usually agree with you but I'm beginning not to. I believe one shouldn't go out of their way to increase the risk because they wear an AAD but quite honestly, there's a good reason why some people won't do a 100 way or fly with AFF students ... etc, without one.

I happen to be without right now, and often feel since it's available, I should buy a new one. I've accidently been in the basement, been in freefall collisions and have been on some pretty hairy AFF dives. It only makes sense to have one. I certainly do not go out of my way to be "dangerous", quite the opposite in fact.

Several competant folks screwed up and took it into the dirt. Quite frankly, I wish they would have had an AAD because I miss them.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[sunshine 2]

Beautiful post Tim.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[kallend 1,635]

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Safety gear doesn't mean one is safe.

Canopy - safety gear. Failures have killed people.
Harness - safety gear. Failures have killed people.
Reserve - safety gear. Failures have killed people.
Container - safety gear. Failures have killed people.
Human brain. Failures have killed more people than the others combined, but some like to pretend theirs is infallible.

All part of a complete system made better if every failure prone part has a back-up.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Harness - safety gear. Failures have killed people.

That is like saying a kayak is a piece of safety gear. It isn't. No kayak and you can't go kayaking. A rig is required gear to skydive like a kayak is required to go kayaking. A PFD and helemt is safety gear. a Helmet and Cypres is safety gear.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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even though I think they use AADs themselves.

I had one for 831 jumps when I was flying a FX-70 and for the 900 or so tandems I did. Other wise I didn't have one. So, just over half my jumps was with one. nothing ever changed about how I jumped when I changed from having one to not having and from not having one to having one.

All I am saying is I don't think jumpers houls accept a higher risk level than they normally would simply because they have a Cypres. That is all.

I think everyone should have a modern AAD in their rigs.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I believe one shouldn't go out of their way to increase the risk because they wear an AAD

That is all I am saying.

Derek

[hookitt 0]

Ok, then we do agree.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[op5e 0]

I personally will jump with a cypress at every chance. However I do see me jumping with one turned off in the future. I like the idea if I bump the head on the plane or another skydiver it protects against that. I personally will do everything in my power to make sure it NEVER saves me from a low/no pull where I was able to do so myself. I do not see it being a substitue for me getting fabric over my own head.

A cypress recently fired high due to a fault, who is to say it is not going to fire low. It might be a 1 in a million chance but if I have an option I am going to bet on me pulling.

I have seen people do Static line or AFF jumps and the cypress fire. I personally think they should consider taking up golf. I have heard them say, yeh I just arched until it pulled for me. The people do not realise this thing saved their life and did not 'just do its job', and they didnt even send Cypress a bottle of whiskey. This mentality scares me and I think this is what some people are strongly against.

I also know other people who take more steps in relation to safety when dealling with students or low jump numbers. I think these people should be pat on the back.

[teason 0]

Wow, there are alot nebulas view points in this thread. There are others that are well put and arguing against a contrary point that wasn't intentionally made in the first place.
So I guess I'll weigh in.

1.) I think we can all agree that an AAD doesn't make you a safer skydiver, it just makes you less likely to die from a low/no pull.

2.) An AAD reduces your margin of error when deploying your main canopy. Those with AADs should be just as mindful of thier deployment altitude as those without.

Most people who are uncomfortable without an AAD aren't that way because they feel the AAD makes them invincible but rather because not having one is not thier norm. If you drive with a seatbelt all the time, try driving without one. You'll feel uncomfortable because you're used to a seat belt, not because you think you're gonna crash.

Also, having a seat belt on is not gonna make you drive faster and more reckless. The belief that people are using thier AADs as an excuse to take extra risks is specious. They jump that way because they haven't got a firm understanding of the dangers and risks not because of a "magic" device.

Well, that's my view. Thoughts?
Tim

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[billvon 2,406]

>They jump that way because they haven't got a firm understanding
>of the dangers and risks not because of a "magic" device.

"You shouldn't do a hybrid with those 3 people. They're not very good freeflyers, and you could be seeing collisions." "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!"

I've heard that more than once. They are getting on dangerous dives at least partly because of the confidence in their cypres, confidence that if they are knocked out in a collision they will still survive. No doubt if this happens, they will have a higher chance of survival if they do have a cypres. But their chance of survival will be higher still if they have the smarts to not make the jump to begin with.

Do most skydivers think this way? No. But some do. I've met them.

[Ron 7]

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AADs (particularly CYPRES) are proven life savers. Of this there is absolutely no doubt. Yet some posters, particularly Ron and to a lesser extent Hooknswoop and Billvon, come over very negatively about their usage even though I think they use AADs themselves.

No, my problem is people like you who encourage their use over, not in addition, to training.

People like you are my problem. Your attitude and your lack of being able to understand a simple problem of skydivers using a CYPRES to replace training, practice and common sense.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334