Progressing to 4-way and 8-ways

[mdrejhon 8]

Hi,

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in Relative Work area, but since this is also related to "Safety" and "Training"...

My current problem in 2-ways seem to be fallrate -- specifically, "falling faster". I can finally do it now, but it's extremely uncomfortable (I strain to arch hard). I think it's the jumpsuit that is too tight, and the rental rig does not have hip rings (articulated harness).

My fully relaxed arch sometimes has a tendancy to cause my knees to dip down ever so slightly. I'm stable as I tilt forward to compensate and still stay relative to surrounding jumpers. It's arching harder that hurts. I can catch up now, but it hurts.

My linked exits are good and stable and I go
"over the hill" fine (legs in if diving away from plane, legs out if facing plane)

My tracking is only "okay". Stable and not oscillating, but body position needs work. (Hard to get critiques of my tracking since I'm rarely watched while I track). Altitude awareness has been good so far.

I am currently jumping at an approx 2:1 ratio for solo's versus relative work. I go every 2 weekends and jump an average of 10 times per weekend (12 times a couple weeks ago, and 9 times this weekend) and plan to keep up this pattern.

Sometimes I manage to do 7 points in 2-way training (this I did a couple times), but when I have fallrate difficulties, sometimes I can't do any point or only do 4-points. As I struggle my fallrate control, sometimes I slide a few feet sideways as I try to adjust my arch.

Fallrate error is about 2-3 feet vertical at the moment, and I can equallize that in a few seconds (more painful if I'm the one that's high). I'm progressing and getting better....a bit painful to arch harder. Linked feel a lot more comfortable and I don't cause the 2-way to tilt as far as I can see.

Next time I am going to the dropzone, they will have the Otter. So there'll be a bunch of 4-ways and 8-ways. I hope I can be part of at least one or two. Due to my good linked exits so far and good linked balance, I feel ready to be the "base" for a 4-way and 8-way. I don't see a problem with being a "base". I feel ready for being introduced to that now. However, I'm not ready to "fly into my slot" yet due to straining on fallrate. I can do it, but it strains a bit and I get somewhat jittery.

I have been warned by many people that I can learn bad habits while being solo. I now current avoid praticing fallrate control during my solos and just do other fun things. A few weeks ago I learn a lot more about fallrate control

Questions:

- Will a custom jumpsuit help? (I use a rental suit now)
- Will hip rings help? (I use a rental rig now)
- Will custom stretch exercises help? If so, which ones?
- Any reasons I should avoid linked 4-ways or 8-ways? (being the base)
- Other techniques to arch harder more comfortably?

[larsrulz 0]

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- Will a custom jumpsuit help?

Often student jumpsuits are a thick fabric, such as polycotton. If you have a problem with falling too slow, then you'll want something for slow fallers, such as nylon. You might try asking around your dropzone if anyone has a nylon jumpsuit you can try, this could make a huge difference. Other than that, if the suit you are using is restricting your arch, then this is a problem which a custom suit can fix.

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- Will hip rings help?

Hip rings will do more for making your rig feel comfortable to wear. The fact that you have a custom rig which fits you better will be much more important than hip rings specifically.

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- Will custom stretch exercises help? If so, which ones?

Practicing your arch at home during the week can help a lot. I personally recommend to my students who have arch problems to spend time at home practicing. A hard arch is not a comfortable position which comes naturally to everyone. Practice makes perfect afterall!

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- Any reasons I should avoid linked 4-ways or 8-ways? (being the base)

Ask your instructors or whoever is organizing. Some people with 200 jumps shouldn't be doing 4-ways while some people with 25 would do just fine. 8-ways are certainly not something to be doing until you have some experience with 4-ways, and fall rate issues alone are not reason to not include yourself, as many people have that problem when they first come off student status. Again, practice makes perfect! Although an important thing to remember is that even with a linked 4-way exit, there is never a guarantee that the exit will go perfectly. You may funnel the exit and end up 20' above the formation and have to move to it (it is very hard for a formation to move significantly), so you'll still have to be able to fly your body, not to mention that just because you're in the base doesn't mean you won't end up on the outside of the formation for some of the points.

The best advice is to go talk to whoever will be organizing the jumps and let them know your situation and that you would really like to join a 4-way. Maybe by the end of the weekend you'll feel comfortable enough to get on an 8-way!!!

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[tigra 0]

Yes, a custom suit should help. Adding weights might help too. Hip rings will make your rig more comfortable. Try to do more 2,3 and 4 ways and fewer solos. And when you can, jump with people who have more experience. Maybe the people you are doing 2 ways with have a problem falling slow which just exagerrates your floaty issues? You'll still learn from jumping with them, but add in some jumps with experienced jumpers too and encourage them to do the same!

Have fun with the otter. If you can get on a 8 way with some experienced jumpers and they know your status, limitations, etc, and you feel comfortable doing it, that's cool, have fun and enjoy! But, please avoid the temptation to organize an 8 way with people who all have less than 50-100 jumps simply because you have an otter to jump from and the "big boys" are busy doing more complex dives that aren't appropriate to your experience! (The otter is a treat for them too, right?)

[kelpdiver 2]

if you're arching so hard it hurts, seems like time to ask about wearing lead. RW is hard enough without spending the entire jump in a pretzel. Usually I'm on the other side, trying to fly like a board, but I did have one with a guy with a faster rate than me. We stay within 5ft the entire dive, me with my feet on my ass, but we never could link up.

Can you borrow a neptune or protrack from someone and get a sense of your falling speed?

(Can you start drinking a *lot* more beer?)

[mdrejhon 8]

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Ask your instructors or whoever is organizing. Some people with 200 jumps shouldn't be doing 4-ways while some people with 25 would do just fine. 8-ways are certainly not something to be doing until you have some experience with 4-ways, and fall rate issues alone are not reason to not include yourself, as many people have that problem when they first come off student status. Again, practice makes perfect! Although an important thing to remember is that even with a linked 4-way exit, there is never a guarantee that the exit will go perfectly. You may funnel the exit and end up 20' above the formation and have to move to it (it is very hard for a formation to move significantly), so you'll still have to be able to fly your body, not to mention that just because you're in the base doesn't mean you won't end up on the outside of the formation for some of the points.

One time, I remember being about 20 feet too high. I was able to fly about 20' down by going into dive (delta-like body position). I intentionally aimed to the side to avoid collision, then overshot 5 feet sideways had to do another dive to get back, then I was level. I think it was my first non-freefall-training-program-related two-way jump. It's on video (jump #25). It was a learning experience.

On another jump, I was 10 feet too high, and I dived level on that try then overshot by a few feet to the side (still much better than my first attempt to "dive to catchup"). I haven't needed to dive on my last few 2-way jumps though, I'm falling only 3-4 feet slow now sometimes, and I can now catch up (slightly erratically) with a hard arch. If I am already level, it's easier to complete my points since I'm not struggling at that point, but once I become floaty, I can ruin the fun by putting too much effort in catching up... (I got warned about needing to enjoy myself )

Falling 20 feet with just an arch sounds a bit painful ... at the moment, I would just do a dive if I had to catchup 20 feet. I can do that now if I had to, but I will be wasting a lot of time trying to get close (I am sure I can get into my 2-way slot faster than I did before but I'm sure I may still waste 20 seconds trying). With some people it was very easy for me to get close, but with others I was never able to dock.

If I HAD to fly to my slot to save my life in a small-way, I think I can, but I am more shaky and erratic while trying to speed up and will probably spend about 20 seconds flying into a slot from about 20 feet up and 20 feet horizontally off.

[tigra 0]

Based on that- it doesn't sound like you are ready for an 8 way! Stick to 2 and 3 ways for now, work on the level issues and do try and get some of the experienced guys to jump with you whenever possible.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Based on that- it doesn't sound like you are ready for an 8 way! Stick to 2 and 3 ways for now, work on the level issues and do try and get some of the experienced guys to jump with you whenever possible.

The difficulty wildly fluctuates depending on the person.

The favourite guys that I jump with (the ones that I don't tend to fall slower than), completing 7 points from an unlinked exit wasn't a problem - I was able to fly into my slot relatively quickly (for a beginner) in that jump.

But on other jump, it took me way too long to fly into my slot, or floating above him was a problem. I have jumped with 5 different people in my last 8 different two-way pratice, so I get a lot of variety of people to jump with.

So that's a big fallrate challenge for me...

[mdrejhon 8]

Also, I was glad that my last 2-way jump was dedicated to fallrate pratice. That went very predictably, and I caught up pretty well. (I still need work, but it was nice to see fallrate act a lot more predictably since I wasn't concentrating on scoring points, etc.)

On average, I fly close to level half of the time (plus or minus 1 feet vertically), and I fly high about half the time (high meaning "a few feet high" at least). That's why I say I have a tendancy to fly high -- I rarely see myself flying low.

One problem with jumping with so many different people (free coaching) is that it's sometimes hard to determine what areas I need to work on, but I now know enough that my fallrate control is one of my main issues. I will be more aggressive at bribing people next time. It will probably be extremely difficult for me to do anything except solo's during the Otter weekend because everybody will be very busy. I still want to see if I can be the base of a static 4-way or even 8-way during that weekend. (after a few good coaching jumps I hope) One can always hope, eh?

[Fuzzy 0]

Mark

I will be sending you a PM listing skills to work on and an order to do them (a skills grid). This will help both you and anyone you are jumping with.

No need to be "aggressive at bribing"...Some people may actually find that just a tad intimidating. We (the staff and other jumpers) all know who you are and that your looking for training.

Take a look at the list and email me with any questions.

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[Fuzzy 0]

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The difficulty wildly fluctuates depending on the person.

Now add a few more people and a few more fluctuations. Include a linked exit that didn't go as planned and is now no longer linked.

Personally a 7 point 2-way is a lot more fun than a 1 point 4-way, and 21 point 2-way - is way way more fun than a 0 point 8-way

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[bob.dino 0]

In my inexperienced opinon: solos won't help. You'll just pick up bad habits.

My current rig doesn't have hip rings and it doesn't cause me any problems.

A jumpsuit sized to fit you properly may make the world of difference. Read more.

All that said, it's the instructors at your DZ that know you best. Listen to them above us.

[mdrejhon 8]

Thanks!

I'll keep an eye out for it (or email me).
Can't wait to order my new rig this week...Will probably order jumpsuit at the same time too.

I just want to see if I can eventually become ready for at least one 0-point 20-way sometime in October (all from one Casa) as part of Deaf World Record 2005. If I am not ready then I'll just pass till 2007. Although I'll still attempt to train for it.

I don't mind if I just concentrate on 2-ways for now, I just need to solve my arch problem, without takeout from the drivethru window at the golden arches

[sundevil777 94]

I don't think you have an arch problem.

I think gravity just has too little influence on you.

You should borrow a tight, nylon jumpsuit, and a weight belt. Hip rings are not relevant to this issue.

You cannot fly well at the extreme of your fallrate range.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skytash 0]

In addition to the comments above, a couple of coached dives will help work out what your problem is. It could be partly you, partly the others you are jumping with each having the opposite problem.

A couple of people I was jumping with this week-end (I do low-time load organising) felt that wearing lead was 'cheating' and that they should learn a better body position. I explained that lead/nylon/cotton jumpsuits/baggy shirt over the top are all perfectly acceptable actions to make sure you are flying comfortably in a neutral position at the same speed as the others.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[mdrejhon 8]

So far, I think I might be too borderline to need a weight belt -- I think I could solve it with practice, some simple arch exercises, and a custom made jumpsuit.

We'll see over the next few weeks. I may be ordering my jumpsuit this week and I'll be tending towards nylon based on what I've learned from several sources so far (including here)

[wmw999 2,165]

A custom made jumpsuit might help. However, if you're always arching reasonably hard (even if it's comfortable) to stay with the fall rate, what's going to happen the first time that you are docked on someone, and someone else is docked on you, and there's tension and they pull?

I can tell you. You'll lose your arch, and begin to float on the formation.

Be in the comfortable middle of your fall rate.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[happythoughts 0]

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Be in the comfortable middle of your fall rate.

You'd be smart to re-read what Tash and Wendy said.

It isn't just a matter of getting down there. You have to be in the middle of your fallrate range so that you can go faster and slower.

A nylon suit will help, but it won't solve all your problems. A lot of lighter jumpers wear weights. All three of the others on my 4-way team do (I am fallrate enhanced already).

Even though I can push 200 lbs and have a fast suit, there are a lot of big-ways where I wear lead. Lead is a tool like any other.

Arching a lot will just give you a sore back. Have a comfortable arch in the middle of your range.

If you arch to get somewhere, you will de-arch and float when you reach for grips. I've jumped with floaty women who could put their feet behind their ears. It's not a speed solution.

[flyangel2 2]

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If you arch to get somewhere, you will de-arch and float when you reach for grips. I've jumped with floaty women who could put their feet behind their ears. It's not a speed solution.

Amen, thank you

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Orange1 0]

With less jumps than you, just to say this:
1. I've been put in weights from my 1st ISP jump (i weigh about 120lb) - apart from the pure weight issue, with the weights being around your hips it actually makes it a bit easier to arch (i wear a vest though and the weights may not reach as far down as the hips on a taller person)
2. My ISP jumps have been watched till deployment so I've received critiques on the tracking too - as you mention this as an issue, is it not worth paying an instructor's slot for a jump or two to get them to watch and critique you?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[flyangel2 2]

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(i wear a vest though and the weights may not reach as far down as the hips on a taller person)

I use to be a strong supporter of the weight vest. Turns out I was wrong If the weights are on the waist, you can fly in the mantis better. With the mantis position, you want to be chest high, and if you have weights up there, it's harder.

Just my opinion, and I've learned it the hard way after hours in the tunnel.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[AMax 0]

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A lot of lighter jumpers wear weights. All three of the others on my 4-way team do /

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The key word here is 4-way team. The reasons why teams wear weights might be different from the reasons why someone with 40 jumps is considering putting a belt on because he/she cannot effectively maintain the levels with the other jumpers. I am not sure that the weight belt is a good idea for such a beginner. Good suit definitely helps. But good 2-way coaching is a key (not to mention tunnel). Set the priorities right. You obviously need to master the very basics of fall rate control and simple RW moves. IMHO, the led can wait.

It is very tempting to go bigger than two. I think most of new jumpers experience this temptation (I definitely did), but in reality going bigger before you really ready will hold you progression back. Select a coach based on his/her skills and consider spending a few bucks for their lessons. Spending some $$ for qualified coaching is definitely better than free coaching form someone who doesn't really know a lot.

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[AMax 0]

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A couple of people I was jumping with this week-end (I do low-time load organising) felt that wearing lead was 'cheating' and that they should learn a better body position. I explained that lead/nylon/cotton jumpsuits/baggy shirt over the top are all perfectly acceptable actions to make sure you are flying comfortably in a neutral position at the same speed as the others.
tash

My arch is restricted because of old back injury. I was always a little floaty so I started to wear weights when I had about 80-100 jumps. A few pound of lead definitely helped to fix the level problems but did not help at all to improve the body position. I lot of new jumpers float up because they fly de-arched and look down. Weights will help them to fall faster but will not help to fix flying problems.

[Fuzzy 0]

Mark

You are getting a lot of great advise here, jump suits and wieghts are very good tools that can and will greatly assist you if needed.

I would ask that you please bear in mind that the people jumping with you can see something the others on an internet forum such as this cannot see.

One of these things is body position & form, the other is how relaxed you are in the air (a major contributor to fallrate problems). I'm 5'10" & 220lbs out the door and had no problem popping up or getting below you on a levels dive wearing my RW suit (which is not baggy).

I pushed you on that levels dive to show you what you could do and to give you an idea of what is required on some RW jumps. The more you do the easier things like that will be until they are truely second nature.

I think it was mentioned in our debrief that your jump suit is too tight especially in areas that it should not be tight in . Until you get your own, try to find one that fits (it doesn't have look good, it just needs to fit) A jump suit that fits, & made out of the proper material will make things much easier, and allow you to maintain a "comfortable" arch / boxman / body position / whatever you want to call it.

What will help the most is more jumps. This will lead to better technique, more confidence and being more relaxed in freefall. For the number of jumps you have, you are doing just fine.

"Coach jumps" (IMHO) should push you somewhat beyond your comfort level, making you think and work. One reason they are and will not always go as well as you would like, but that means you are learning

With the jumps you have, you are not expected to be turning 16 point 4-ways or be a late diver docking last on a bigway. You are expected to make mistakes, learn from them, and trust the staff you are jumping with.

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[Remster 24]

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I would ask that you please bear in mind that the people jumping with you can see something the others on an internet forum such as this cannot see.

Thats just crazy talk!

Always, always take whatever you read here with a grain of salt. Your coaches and instructors should always be you 1st point of reference.

Remster

[mdrejhon 8]

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Always, always take whatever you read here with a grain of salt. Your coaches and instructors should always be you 1st point of reference.

Fuzzy is one of my instructors