Am I taking these forums too seriously?

[ILikePizza 0]

Below is taken from:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3917321;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

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In my opinion, you are completely full of crap with this concept.

Over and over on this site we have to listen to Hundred-Jump Wonders who have discovered that something many people have been doing to successfully complete many jumps is completely wrong and they have a new and better way. Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better.

I realize, from your previous posts, that you are among the "Old people with experience are full of shit" club, so I don't expect anything from you but poor reception of my comments. That matters little to me. I hope that, if you jump with any group of people, you let them all know your intentions before the jump so that they can all make the decision as to whether to jump with you or not.

People move forward and downward in a track. If everyone looks forward and downward and controls their flight path according to what they see there (low-man rule), things have a history of working out. If you are busy looking up at the sky when someone on a converging path below you pulls, you will be responsible for the resulting conflict.

As I said above, if you carefully explain to all on your group that this is the plan that you, in your 160-jump wisdom, plan to follow, then go for it. Don't be surprised if anyone with an ounce of sense tells you to fuck off.

I have seen a major theme in most discussion threads that we (those of us that are new to the sport that come here for learning when we can't be at our home DZs) are generally percieved as rogues or assholes out there with an invicibility complex with a lack of regard for our own or other peoples' lives and general safety. The post above is a perfect example.

I can certainly understand the tone of response given when these things show up in the air, at a DZ when people are at risk. However, I see these forums as a place to take a few minutes and explain the whats and whys of mistakes or misinformation. I would even extend that a bit to coaching some of us on our attitudes toward safety and our actions before, during, and after each skydive.

My expectations of the experienced jumpers here is to provide that coaching, create that positive atmosphere that we see at our DZs, read about in Parachutist, and feel from our mentors. I get concerned and worried when the tone becomes more focused on bashing our enthusiasm EVEN when that enthusiasm is focused on doing things that aren't the safest. In that case, how about a link to a discussion of why I'm wrong? How about a call out without '100 jump wonder' labels being stuck to my forehead?

Or, should I just shut up and ignore this stuff?

As a disclaimer:
a) This post was not directed at me. I stuck my head into someone else's conversation, so judge me if you want...

b) I will always refer to my instructors for confirmation advice I get here.

...And I'm not gonna not get Randy Jackson's autograph...
Did we just become best friends?

D.S. #1000000

[wmw999 2,148]

1. If you ever have to ask that question, the answer is probably yes

2. In this case, the original poster is one who seems to be likely to post inflammatory things and then try to defend them. And yeah, those don't often get gentle treatment.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nutz 0]

You should never take these forums seriously. If you want a serious answer ask someone at your dz that you trust, like an instructor.

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[Beachbum 0]

I think that part of that demeanor also results from the tendancy of some to ignore either the search function, or the results it provides to them, such that they end up trying to rehash something that has already been discussed half to death. Then, on top of that, in spite of their lack of time and jumps compared to many they seem to often elect to support a view against prevailing thought on the given subject in spite of the knowledge and consideration applied to it by people with many more jumps and years in the sport. That behavior repeated over and over can tend to make some people's responses a bit terse!!!

edit to add ... I don't think anyone wants to dampen the enthusiasm of newer jumpers, nor does it have anything to do with that. Some of the lessons learned by those "old jumpers" came at the expense of themselves or their friends, and they do not want others to get injured or worse relearning those lessons.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[ILikePizza 0]

I'll take point 1 and have a seat.

...And I'm not gonna not get Randy Jackson's autograph...
Did we just become best friends?

D.S. #1000000

[quesera 0]

Honestly, I think all forums for all topics have this tendency (which is usually why I don't stick around too long in any given place).

I think it stems from the anonymity and the weird dynamic that goes on where people think they know someone through their posts, and therefore feel "invested" in smacking them down, because they take it personally.

Obviously safety is serious, but I agree with you that this is not a dropzone, we're not in each other's air space, and thus this is the perfect place for calm discussion. The anonymity even grants the rare opportunity to ask "stupid" questions without looking stupid in front of people you plan to jump with. What a great chance for people to coach others in a friendly way!

I'm just about to get my A license (this week, I hope), and I certainly don't think I know everything. In fact, it's horrifying to me how little I do know. That's why I want to ask questions, hear advice, etc., and it's been awesome to be able to do that here. I've found people pretty cool so far, but keeping my distance is probably part of that.

So, I would say participate as you want, and ignore the people who are feeling pissy. They were "100 jump wonders" at one point too, and I'm sure many of them think that their number represents the level of respect owed, even though they probably change their opinion constantly, so their number is always the threshold for who deserves respect.

Speaking of which, why is everyone so obsessed with their jump number? Yeah, 5,000 is a lot. Oooh, ahhh. Are you also a cool person? Fun to jump with? Nice to talk to on the ground? A good person in other aspects of your life? Worth being friends with?

I swear, some people would tattoo their number on their head if it would automatically update, just to show off.

[TEB6363 0]

Go watch the "Dropzone dot com: Behind the Screens" video.. It says it all

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[Beachbum 0]

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Speaking of which, why is everyone so obsessed with their jump number? Yeah, 5,000 is a lot. Oooh, ahhh.

Jump #'s and time in sport are not the beat all/end all indication of knowledge in the sport, but they're a very good start in that direction. Any time you start into a new endeavor, do you seek education and advice from others also relatively new to that, or from people who have a lot of experience doing whatever it may be? It's not an obsession, it's more like an acknowledgement.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[timmyfitz 0]

This should explain it.

http://www.jewcy.com/files/images/Greater%20Internet%20Fuckwad%20TheorySIMPLE.img_assist_custom.jpg

[jimmytavino 16]

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You should never take these forums seriously. If you want a serious answer ask someone at your dz that you trust, like an instructor.

...however do NOT immediately dismiss those with decades of observation, study, practice and improvement,,, in the sport that most people think, came along JUST before THEY found it....

Many of the really good instructors, the ones who dealt with crummy gear, and who helped change everyone Over to new gear,,, and NEW emergency procedures... the Ones who CREATED the damn programs which are in use today...
Lots of those types have passed on or have eased away from the sport,
yet many jumpers remain from that vintage and their experiences and opinions CAN be helpful and may be substantial...

Just about all the instructors i see today have all come up in the sport more recently, say the last 2 decades...
I can easily remember many of them walking around in AFF student rigs... hell i have video of many them... as students.No doubt their advice should be good...but i do hear things from time to time, that make me wonder, and i do see behaviors and skydiving traits that concern me,,, from instructors...
Anyone who has earned a rating has my respect but i wouldn't necessarily take everything they say,,, as gospel.

so certainly do seek advice from a few sources,,,,, and then carefully weigh the responses


as for posts which suggest ideas and a strict adherance to the ideas,, whether they are sensible OR silly,,,,
they WILL usually draw some fire.... ,,, and rightfully SO !!!!
it's sort of the reason to come here and read in these wide - ranging and interesting forums.
thanks to all behind the scenes folks,,, here @ dropzone.com who make it all possible
ps... maybe I am taking these forums too seriously,,, myself!! hahahahahah
jimmytavino
A 3914

[Sangi 0]

Yes, do not dismiss back in my day guys..

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[kkeenan 13]

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...we (those of us that are new to the sport that come here for learning when we can't be at our home DZs) are generally percieved as rogues or assholes out there with an invicibility complex with a lack of regard for our own or other peoples' lives and general safety.

People, new or old, on this site are only perceived and judged by what they write. The post that you quoted was written by me in response to a discussion about a certain technique for clearing the air around yourself prior to deployment at the end of a group freefall.

Hopefully, you took the time to read the entire thread and didn't just see the term, "Hundred Jump Wonder", and think all newbies were being picked on. I carefully worded that response to the original poster. He was trying to find a justification for a technique that has been discussed in extreme detail, through many, many posts, and declared worthless and unsafe by at least 90% of the people who discussed it. He proceeded to pick apart these explanations to try to find some justification for this technique or to find anyone who would agree with him.

Many times in the early part of a person's jumping career, they will come across a way of doing things that seems to make sense to them, and since no one else is doing it, they feel that they have discovered something fabulous and new. Sometimes they have. More often, however, they have come across something that was tried and discarded long ago as worthless or dangerous. Usually, when told about this, the person understands the explanation and moves along. That was not the case with this poster. It is frustrating to try to give information to someone that is intended to save their lives and those of their friends and have it dismissed as just another "suggestion". People who have been doing this for a while have seen their friends die because of unforseen causes. Once these causes are understood, it's tough to watch others ignore the lessons and make the same mistakes again.

If you need to be gently and softly talked into believing a message that is intended to save you from a violent a horrible death, maybe you're in the wrong sport.

Kevin Keenan

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[Amazon 7]

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Yes, do not dismiss back in my day guys..

Nope.. dismissing someone who has actually survived all those years is just silly right?

Do you think YOU will be one of the skydivers who survive and be jumping in 30 years.... or just another one of the thousands of tourists who quit when reality bites them a bit hard and they move on to eXtReMe bowling or RaDiCaL golf.

[Bertt 0]

OK, here's an example. In another thread, a student asked about taking Dramamine during AFF training to prevent nausea. A guy with 16 years in the sport said not to take Damamine. Two minutes later, a guy with less than one year in the sport posted, "Dramamine should help."
I'd say take about half the stuff you see here seriously.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[bluetwo 0]

I think people who say things like - search noob! - are just too lazy to share and discuss what they know with other people.

Its a good thing school teachers don't just spout off to their students that they shouldn't ask questions because it has already been asked before.

I say if it bothers you to share your thoughts and ideas then move on to another thread. People learn by doing, asking questions; getting experience.

_______________________________________

[TEB6363 0]

Bertt, Well, at least I said to check with their instructor first (keeping with the other rants in this thread)...

So, yep, I agree with you that about 1/2 the stuff here could be taken seriously... I just come here to see if there are any new boobie pics

I still like the part of the DZ video when the little computer guys said "Dude - I'm totally flamming some guy who wanted to down-size his canopy"...

I'll I know about this place is that everyone here knows more than me

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

[Beachbum 0]

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I think people who say things like - search noob! - are just too lazy to share and discuss what they know with other people.

That goes the other way quite well also ... I think some people are too lazy to use the search function and read what others have already said about a given subject, but instead expect people to reiterate just for their benefit! If someone already bothered to share their knowledge and experience, why do you think them lazy because they don't care to retype it just for you, when their original thoughts are easily available to read if you weren't too lazy to do so? ... ;) ...

To use your teacher analogy, a good teacher ... once he/she has taught something might very well tell a student to do some research, then come back if they still don't understand.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[ILikePizza 0]

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If you need to be gently and softly talked into believing a message that is intended to save you from a violent a horrible death, maybe you're in the wrong sport.

I don't need soft or cushy treatment. Like I said, when we're at the DZ and some one sees me fuck up or do something stupid, I would not be surprised, offended, or pissed off if that person chewed me out in front of a crowd of people. That is deserved, and please bug out and scream at me if you feel so inclined. It's in the context of the forums that I was referring to.

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Hopefully, you took the time to read the entire thread and didn't just see the term, "Hundred Jump Wonder", and think all newbies were being picked on. I carefully worded that response to the original poster. He was trying to find a justification for a technique that has been discussed in extreme detail, through many, many posts, and declared worthless and unsafe by at least 90% of the people who discussed it. He proceeded to pick apart these explanations to try to find some justification for this technique or to find anyone who would agree with him.

I did read some of what that dude posted and I agree, his attitude merits the response. My point was to quote your post to make an example of what I see as a much larger theme. I didn't intend to call you out or anything, even though it probably seems that way.

Unfortunately your post was the post that really caught me. No offense in any way, and I think the tone is justified in many ways.

Anyways... I guess I'm a softie and want us all to take it easy (in the forums!).

...And I'm not gonna not get Randy Jackson's autograph...
Did we just become best friends?

D.S. #1000000

[rnicks 0]

If you need to be gently and softly talked into believing a message that is intended to save you from a violent a horrible death, maybe you're in the wrong sport.***


Disagree.

I DO expect people to talk nicely to me and I'm doing just fine in the sport. Nobody has ever given me advice harshly, but if they had, I would be probably would be pissed and feelings hurt.

People respond much better to positive reinforcemnet. If the "ass chewing" is given in a friendly but direct mannor, the content is more likely to be received and carried out.

[agent_lead 0]

you have to understand that the skydiving community as a whole consists of very strong personalities.

everyone wants to be on the soapbox at the same time.

--------------------------------------------
www.facebook.com/agentlead

[rnicks 0]

Understand

However, I believe the delivery of the message is just as important as the content. People respond negatively to negatism. (go figure!) However when the message is conveyed in a positive aspect, the content is much more likely to be fully absorbed. This in turn helps lead to the desired outcome. And wasn't that the original goal in the first place? To become safer skydivers?

Just because one may have the experiences to offer up the advice to younger jumpers doesn't mean they have the people skills to do it.

[kallend 1,647]

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You should never take these forums seriously. If you want a serious answer ask someone at your dz that you trust, like an instructor.

With the obvious exception of instructors who teach that you should wait until the previous group makes a 45 degree angle before exiting.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pinkfairy 0]

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How about a call out without '100 jump wonder' labels being stuck to my forehead?

There is a way to get rid of that 100-jump wonder label.



Yeah, and some messages aren't pleasant. How do you present "You can die or get badly injured if you don't have a proper breakoff plan" as a positive message? There are worse things than your feelings that can get hurt.

The discussions here are actually to a large degree useful. There are people going around at DZs advocating barrel rolling, Here you get to read experienced skydiver's opinions on it, and get some good explanations on why, instead of having some guy with 475 jumps telling you that you have to barrel roll. I think many skydivers learn from this, including me.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[bluetwo 0]

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I think people who say things like - search noob! - are just too lazy to share and discuss what they know with other people.

That goes the other way quite well also ... I think some people are too lazy to use the search function and read what others have already said about a given subject, but instead expect people to reiterate just for their benefit! If someone already bothered to share their knowledge and experience, why do you think them lazy because they don't care to retype it just for you, when their original thoughts are easily available to read if you weren't too lazy to do so? ... ;) ...

To use your teacher analogy, a good teacher ... once he/she has taught something might very well tell a student to do some research, then come back if they still don't understand.

I think what you don't understand about message boards is that a lot of times things that have been answered don't apply in the person who is askings situation. I don't disagree that there questions that have been answered already. Some questions only need a simple search to find the answer but others are too vague.

People come on message boards to chat, ask questions and hopefully get answers initially. Those who are just jaded and bored with life are quick to put somebody down and the new person may or may not continue to read and post. Some people coming on this message board are posting on something like this for the first time too.

You should also realize that people just like to get feedback on their individual situation regardless of whether every other person who has ever jumped with through it or not. I don't understand what is so wrong with just acting like a decent human being, even to people you don't know.

_______________________________________

[ghost47 18]

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However, I believe the delivery of the message is just as important as the content. People respond negatively to negatism. (go figure!) However when the message is conveyed in a positive aspect, the content is much more likely to be fully absorbed. This in turn helps lead to the desired outcome. And wasn't that the original goal in the first place? To become safer skydivers?

Just because one may have the experiences to offer up the advice to younger jumpers doesn't mean they have the people skills to do it.

This is not a zero sum game.

I agree that it would be great if more experienced skydivers were nicer or more positive in their presentations. As a newer skydiver, I appreciate it much better when someone says, "Hey, I saw that last thing you did, and maybe you want to consider doing this other thing instead, because if X happens, you may find yourself in a lot of trouble." rather than "Hey asshole, that last idiot thing you did is going to kill you or kill me. Shape up or get out of my sport."

But on the flipside, I'd hope that no matter how the advice is given to me, I'd think about it and consider it and not discount it just because it wasn't given to me nicely. Ultimately, facts are facts, good advice is good advice, and the ground doesn't care whether the advice was delivered nicely or not, the ground will kill me either way.

So I'd say the takeaway is twofold: experienced jumpers -- if you're nicer, your message might get through better. Less experienced jumpers -- try to listen to the content of the message, not the delivery.