Airviking 0 #1 November 12, 2010 Found a rig I want to buy, the question is how to conduct the transaction. I don't know the seller, and he lives half way across the country. He would prefer to do this by PayPal, but he wants payment before he sends the rig. The seller doesn't have a presence on Dropzone.com, other than creating an account and posting an add for his gear. We have been e-mailing back and forth, and he sent me pictures of (the) gear. He appears to be a regular guy, but so do most scam artists. Is there a standard way to do this, that reduces the risk for both parties? The only thing I can think of off hand is, I stick my neck out for 1/2 the purchase price, he sends the gear, and then I pay the balance. Any ideas?I believe you have my stapler. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #2 November 12, 2010 What I did under similar circumstances a number of years ago was to ask them where they jumped when they used to jump, and why they'd quit. I used google to confirm what they said (i.e. got divorced, remarried, had a new hobby) and just made a value judgment. You could also call the guy's old DZ to check him out, or contact a rigger at his DZ to act as an escrow. If you select and vet the rigger there, then that should mitigate the risk somewhat. Good luck. I'm still jumping the container and reserve I bought that way. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
motomike 1 #3 November 12, 2010 Have him send it to your rigger for inspection and use your rigger as esgrow service !!!! DO NOT SEND MONEY ! Search for "what to do with non payment on rig". what a nightmare! ATLEAST use a credit card as last resort to CYA ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #4 November 12, 2010 ask where he jumps, try and find people who can vouch for him and for the gear. I did just that when I purchased my BASE gear from a poster from here who lives a couple of countries apart. Luckily I knew personally someone who knew him and could vouch for him. Great transaction.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #5 November 12, 2010 As mentioned, one idea is to see if he will send the rig to a rigger or to your home DZ for a pre-purchase inspection. Arrange to make payment to the rigger or someone at the DZ, who will hold the dough and confirm to the seller that they have the money. Upon recieving the gear and having it pass inspection, the rigger or DZ can send payment to the seller and release the gear to you. You can also see if the two of you know anyone in common. A rigger or instructor at your DZ may know a rigger or instructor at his DZ. You can use this existing relationship as a way to make the deal happen. You pay your rigger and he gives the rig to his rigger. The two confirm with each other that they have the money or the gear, then they make the transaction. A last resort is to dis-assemble the gear and have it sent to the manfacturers for inspection. Once the gear passes inspection, you pay the seller, and he intsricts the mfr. to ship the gear to you. Keep in mind that you want a rigger or manufacturer involved in any used gear pruchase. Various types of gear have recalls or 'problem areas' that a rigger will have a record of, and will be able to check any possible prucahses against. The last thing you want to do is buy a rig, recieve it with no problems only to have a rigger refuse to pack it or inform you it needs expensive repairs before it can be jumped. Meanwhile, the seller considers it a 'done deal' and has already spent your money on new gear or crystal meth. So even if you find a seller willing to 'trust' you and ship a rig without payment, or ship at the same time you send the check, you still need a riggers OK before you should consider it a done deal. Either use a rigger as an escrow service, or make sure you the seller understands that the sale is dependent on the riggers approval, and that you are free to return the gear for a full refund within a week or so. It's probably fair to split the shipping costs if a deal falls through. If you need an independent rigger to handle the inspection/payment, I think that Mike at Chuting Star offers that service for a few bucks. He's a reputable rigger who's also a fairly big gear dealer and both you of you can feel safe with him handling your gear or money. Again, splitting the fee is probably the fair thing to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airviking 0 #6 November 12, 2010 QuoteHave him send it to your rigger for inspection and use your rigger as esgrow service !!!! DO NOT SEND MONEY ! Search for "what to do with non payment on rig". what a nightmare! ATLEAST use a credit card as last resort to CYA ! I'll contact my local rigger today, ask if he'll be the escrow guy.I believe you have my stapler. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hvance 0 #7 November 12, 2010 Don't send anything directly to him. Ask him to send the gear to your local rigger. Send your rigger the payment in full. Your rigger conducts an inspection of the gear and verifies the funds. Once s/he determines that the gear is as advertised, s/he sends the funds to the seller. Once the seller confirms receipt of the payment, the rigger releases the gear to you. Minimal risk for all involved. If the seller doesn't trust a reputable rigger, I probably wouldn't buy from that person.I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #8 November 12, 2010 Quote a reputable rigger BAWAAAHAAAAA!!!!!!! Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #9 November 12, 2010 Quote Quote a reputable rigger BAWAAAHAAAAA!!!!!!! True that. However, I think some of the bigger lofts will do escrow for you, such as Chutingstar, etc. If they won't do a local rigger, then a major loft may work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #10 November 12, 2010 Quote Quote a reputable rigger BAWAAAHAAAAA!!!!!!! 'culé scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamMasterJay 0 #11 November 12, 2010 QuoteHave him send it to your rigger for inspection and use your rigger as esgrow service !!!! DO NOT SEND MONEY ! I love it. "DO NOT SEND MONEY!"...what's up with that? So buyers aren't supposed to trust a seller because they don't know one another? I can see it now. SELLER: Send me the money and as soon as I get it, I will send the gear. BUYER: Yeah right dude...I'm not sending you money; I don't trust your ass! Send your gear to my rigger and as soon as I get it, I will send the money. SELLER: I don't know your rigger...that doesn't make the deal any safer. BUYER: It makes it safer for me. It's like DR DRE said...you gotta get yours...but FOOL...I gotta get mine! SELLER: F-OFF! Newsflash....just because a dude has a riggers certificate doesn't mean he's not going to cheat you! Dude, just ask a few questions...get a warm fuzzy and send him the money. I've bought and sold a metric ton of gear and it's all gone great.Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #12 November 12, 2010 >SELLER: Send me the money and as soon as I get it, I will send the gear. >BUYER: Yeah right dude...I'm not sending you money; I don't trust your >ass! Send your gear to my rigger and as soon as I get it, I will send the >money. >SELLER: I don't know your rigger...that doesn't make the deal any safer. >BUYER: It makes it safer for me. It's like DR DRE said...you gotta get >yours...but FOOL...I gotta get mine! Two people that stupid shouldn't be doing business at all! A wiser course of action: SELLER: Send me the money and as soon as I get it, I will send the gear. BUYER: Yeah right dude...I'm not sending you money; I don't trust you! Send your gear to my rigger and as soon as I get it, I will send the money. SELLER: I don't know your rigger. BUYER: Do you know Mad John? SELLER: Yeah, I see him every once in a while at Byron, and I had dinner with him at Lost Prairie a bunch of times. BUYER: Well, I jump with him sometimes. I'll send the money to him, you send the gear to him, and when he gets both he'll send you the money and give me the gear. SELLER: OK. This also serves as a "sanity check" for people buying gear. If you do not have a single friend in common in a community as small as the skydiving world, then one person may not be being 100% honest about his participation in the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #13 November 12, 2010 QuoteDo you know Mad John? I don't think there's too many people in this sport who dont know Mad John.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #14 November 12, 2010 I've sold a bit of used stuff by shipping it, and having them mail the check simultaneously. Yes, it's absolutely on trust, but so far I haven't been burned. It's all been to experienced jumpers with quite a bit of time in the sport. I did have a different deal with a new rig where this relatively new person to our sport thought they could just not ever pay for it. They were surprised to find out how small our sport is and how many great jumpers I know. It's now been paid in full.[;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spootch 0 #15 November 12, 2010 Quote Quote a reputable rigger BAWAAAHAAAAA!!!!!!! Hey remster your rig is almost due for repack, just send it to me no charge! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #16 November 12, 2010 Quote Quote Quote a reputable rigger BAWAAAHAAAAA!!!!!!! Hey remster your rig is almost due for repack, just send it to me no charge! I rest my case! Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airviking 0 #17 November 12, 2010 QuoteQuoteHave him send it to your rigger for inspection and use your rigger as esgrow service !!!! DO NOT SEND MONEY ! I love it. "DO NOT SEND MONEY!"...what's up with that? So buyers aren't supposed to trust a seller because they don't know one another? I can see it now. SELLER: Send me the money and as soon as I get it, I will send the gear. BUYER: Yeah right dude...I'm not sending you money; I don't trust your ass! Send your gear to my rigger and as soon as I get it, I will send the money. SELLER: I don't know your rigger...that doesn't make the deal any safer. BUYER: It makes it safer for me. It's like DR DRE said...you gotta get yours...but FOOL...I gotta get mine! SELLER: F-OFF! Newsflash....just because a dude has a riggers certificate doesn't mean he's not going to cheat you! Dude, just ask a few questions...get a warm fuzzy and send him the money. I've bought and sold a metric ton of gear and it's all gone great. This could be addressed by using a rigger who is also a businessman, like Sonic, at The Ranch, I don't think he would risk his reputation over $1,200.I believe you have my stapler. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #18 November 12, 2010 >This could be addressed by using a rigger who is also a businessman, like >Sonic, at The Ranch, I don't think he would risk his reputation over $1,200. While I agree in general, there is currently a businessman who is risking his reputation over $300 on Gear and Rigging. You're almost always better off going with someone you know (or better yet _buying_ from someone you know.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #19 November 12, 2010 QuoteHave him send it to your rigger for inspection and use your rigger as esgrow service !!!! DO NOT SEND MONEY ! Search for "what to do with non payment on rig". what a nightmare! ATLEAST use a credit card as last resort to CYA ! Not everyone is willing to send w/o getting paid. It seems the buyer is always asking the seller to trust them, and to ship w/o getting paid. but what about reciprocity ? How can the seller be assured that they will get paid ? Ponder that one.. In practice it takes me 2 weeks to get paid from the time I ship the product to the time I get the check in the mail. That's 14 days - half a month - lots of time (at least in my book). in the past I have had : buyer change their mind, and take 10 days to ship the product back. That was a total of 3.5 weeks of product being out of my hands and thus unmarketable. Buyers take "a few extra days" to pay. This ranged from 1 day to 2 weeks. Not too good for cashflow :( Buyer's rigger (newer Senior rigger) claim the product needs $250 worth of work, while a seasoned Master Rigger considered the same as very minor wear and tear. (this was slight fuzz on the right lateral from hook velcro BASE pouch rubbing against the T7 webbing) Jumper refusing to make a $50 deposit on a $700 piece of gear. Apparently she has gotten numerous people to ship gear to her rigger and was going to have her own little layaway shopping spree at the expense of others. Not cool. I have had people offer me significantly less for the gear that was already in their possession, for no good reason but because they had the upper hand. That's just extremely unethical... One guy had the rig for two weekends, put 27 jumps on it and then claimed that he didn't like the main all that much. He didn't want to buy the rig w/o the main, and shipped the rig back. This just happened to coincide with a big boogie at his DZ. I figure he got 5 days worth of free rental from me :( And of course I have had a few people who would take their sweet time getting to the rigger after the said inspection. One guy actually never showed up, so I had to send a prepaid FedEx label to get the gear back. So yeah, as someone who sells lots of gear, I very seldom am willing to ship something without getting paid first. But that's just me :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamMasterJay 0 #20 November 12, 2010 Quote> BUYER: Do you know Mad John? When you buy a shirt on the internet do you also use Mad John for that?Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #21 November 12, 2010 QuoteQuote> BUYER: Do you know Mad John? When you buy a shirt on the internet do you also use Mad John for that? Do you buy a lot of shirts online that cost a couple thousand bucks? Do you buy a lot of shirts online from random individuals?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamMasterJay 0 #22 November 12, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote> BUYER: Do you know Mad John? When you buy a shirt on the internet do you also use Mad John for that? Do you buy a lot of shirts online that cost a couple thousand bucks? Do you buy a lot of shirts online from random individuals? anything you buy online is from random individuals.Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #23 November 12, 2010 >When you buy a shirt on the internet do you also use Mad John for that? That was more of an example. I don't use Mad John. When I'm buying gear I generally use Bonnie. But for $7.99 T-shirts I generally have no problem taking a (small) risk on a website. For more expensive items generally I go with a vendor I trust and have experience with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #24 November 12, 2010 Quote They were surprised to find out how small our sport is and how many great jumpers I know. Yeah you do. This person has a business now that I won't patronize because of your experience. Very small community indeed. To the OP, you really can tell a lot through conversations. I've sold two canopies on dropzone.com. One was brokered through Chutingstar - the buyer was local to Mike and I knew Mike and had no problem sending it to him. Even if I didn't I probably would have been comfortable brokering a transaction through Chutingstar or any of the larger dealers/rigging lofts - they've spent quite a bit of time building up their business reputations and aren't going to risk that by screwing over a random seller online. There's no upside there. For the other, I also got a dealer involved that I knew. The buyer and I had conversed back and forth and I didn't have any real concerns but having a dealer in the middle helped to facilitate the transaction. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, when I bought my first rig, I bought the container/reserve from an individual seller who, after just a couple conversations, put the rig in a box and sent it to me with an "I trust you" assurance. I paid shipping, and agreed to pay to ship it back if I didn't want to buy it (but since it was exactly as the seller described and fit me well, I did end up buying it). I was, frankly, surprised that he was willing to do that as, at the time, I'd never left my then-home DZ in Washington and he was in North Carolina and, AFAIK, didn't do any vetting of me (other than our conversations). In later transactions where I was the buyer, I've bought from people I knew (or with whom I share a lot of mutual friends) so there wasn't an issue of trusting a total stranger."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #25 November 12, 2010 Quote anything you buy online is from random individuals. Usually it's (as billvon also said) from a trusted vendor - and purchased with a credit card, which comes with its own set of buyer protections."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
