Ron 7
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billvon 2,400
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>IT IS SIMPLY NOT VIABLE FOR A START UP DZ TO OFFER O.C. USING A
>C185/182
Skydive Long Island did - so your claim is provably wrong.
Now, they may not make as much money as they like. Which was my original point.
>C185/182
Skydive Long Island did - so your claim is provably wrong.
Now, they may not make as much money as they like. Which was my original point.
Para5-0 0
Skydive Long Island in Calverton started with no outside video, just the pilot snapping an exit shot from a wing mounted camera. Eventually outside video was implemented but it was years later after they upgraded to a 207. Now with a caravan and king air they only offer O/V.
Long Island Skydive offers H/C only with their cessna operation. They fly 182's
Long Island Skydive offers H/C only with their cessna operation. They fly 182's
Quote
Quote..now.. i looked at your dz´s website http://www.skydivefranz.co.nz/prices
and you are proposing "DVD and PHOTO packages"
yes all DVD's come with photos.
.
A gro pro in photo mode doesn´t take bad pictures, as long as you have good light...but nothing like a descent reflex...
now... grabbing frames of the video and selling it as "photos" is wrong, to say the least ...( i wish the customers could see the difference...)
or do you use 2 cameras?
Why would that be wrong?
Is it the absolute best possible photograph? No, but at what point do you stop splitting hairs?
Does a Nikon take better pics than a Cannon...and if so are Cannon users 'cheating' the customer?
If the customer gets a photo of themselves that they can hang on the wall, and they are happy...nothing wrong.
Imagine if it had become standard practice for several years to use TWO outside cameras for every tandem. Then it hit ya as a DZO that you increase your marginal profit by cutting down to one.
The 'new' video would not be as 'good' as the way it was done by some peoples definition, but does the customer not get a video showing what they did?
That's pretty much all they want, in my experience they will take what's offered or they won't. I don't believe it's ever been a big issue regarding a 1st time video customer complaining ANY video isn't up to their standards.
I know of a small DZ that clips a USB lipstick camera ON the student...they charge next to nothing for the DVD, student gets a video and the DZ gets free advertising...No safety factor considerations regarding hand cam. Win Win Win situation.
If the DZO makes a few % more on the transaction and profit margin increases...isn't that a good thing?
Again, it's happening now and it's only going to increase in scope, the technology of the shrinking camera was probably the catalyst...the main concern we as participants in the sport should be questioning. . . the safety factor.
If & when incidents start stacking up an alternative will be implemented, but so far there have been more fatalities from not putting the harness on right than because of a hand cam.
I don't have a dog in this fight but I can read the winds...hand cams are the next 'trend' as far as student video.
It's a money thing and money drives the sport, ya can waste time arguing how to stop the train or you can offer input as to how to keep it running safe.
Make no mistake, that train is rollin' and pickin' up speed.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
billvon 2,400
>Skydive Long Island in Calverton started with no outside video . . .
Yeah, I meant Skydive Long Island/East Moriches. (Before Calverton.) Harry Parker would often do video for Tommy Carrol's tandems.
Yeah, I meant Skydive Long Island/East Moriches. (Before Calverton.) Harry Parker would often do video for Tommy Carrol's tandems.
rhys 0
Quotegrabbing frames of the video and selling it as "photos" is wrong, to say the least ...( i wish the customers could see the difference...)
or do you use 2 cameras?
I did make a glove for 2 cameras but found the added processes of the extra camera was a lot to deal with. And took the focus away from the skydive (safety issue).
We don't sell the photos they are free, with a DVD.
At first we did not offer photos but people insisted, we explained they would be frame grabs and only about 100kb or less, they were fine with that, they wanted photos for facebook.
When we added the photos, we did not raise the price. even though it takes us longer to produce them. We choose the frame, we have a system that will randomly choose a frame, but I will not send out a product like that.
For a couple of people we have even just put the camera on photo mode, they said they were not interested in the DVD
AS SOON AS WE START OUTSIDE CAMERA....
No more hand cam photos.
They are fine for facebook, etc but I don't really like them at all. They are there by customer demand.
The extra camera thing is a bit too much for me. Some may find it OK to deal with But I would rather not have that at my DZ. We will have photographer with a minimum requirement of camera and lens (no stock lenses).
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
rhys 0
Quote>IT IS SIMPLY NOT VIABLE FOR A START UP DZ TO OFFER O.C. USING A
>C185/182
Skydive Long Island did - so your claim is provably wrong.
Now, they may not make as much money as they like. Which was my original point.
We'll I guess I have to rephrase my statement to say that in my country it is not possible.
In America you have cheap Gas, an excess of airplanes, parts... where it may be possible there, I cannot imagine it is very profitable.
Heck I could start up a dz doing single loads from a CASA and that is possible too.
Here we would lose money doing that, we would also lose customers (couples and groups).
It is definitely not possible here, I know someone who tried (director was a camera guy that didn't want to get a rating)
...failed.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
cocheese 0
It is more important for a student to see another person in freefall during the skydive than it is to see anything a handi cam can produce.
We must sell the experience of the "moment".
Tell the students how cool it is to have another person dock on them. That's what they will remember long after the electronic devices are obsolete.
We must sell the experience of the "moment".
Tell the students how cool it is to have another person dock on them. That's what they will remember long after the electronic devices are obsolete.
Quote
IT IS SIMPLY NOT VIABLE FOR A START UP DZ TO OFFER O.C. USING A C185/182, this is my point and a point that many here fail to acknowledge.
I really wonder if this is a NZ economics thing because the average american dz is using a 182 & OV.
-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."
rhys 0
QuoteI really wonder if this is a NZ economics thing because the average american dz is using a 182 & OV.
So most American dz's use single tandem loads if they sell camera to them??
I think you are right though and the crossed wire here is an economics thing, not a New Zealand economics thing, but a global economics thing.
It is an interesting observation also.
A can of coke cost $2.5 here and the equivalent of $0.30 in Tanzania.
It would be easy for the conversation to go astray from this point which we will try to avoid, but I cannot fathom how the same business as mine would operate in America as much as an American could not completely understand how it works here. Almost every aspect, (price, legislation, taxes, exchange rates, tourism...) you name it, it will be different.
It was equivalent to about Twice the price for a jump in Norway as it is to here and they were only 10k jumps.
We will be offering 18k jumps for the same price the Norwegians offer a 10-12k jump, and we will be offering 18k jumps for about twice the price as an 18k jump in America.
In business, it all comes down to economics in the end.
I wish to create a skydiving club here too so fun jumpers can have an avenue outside the tandem business, that gets a plane at cost to make it feasible for sporties to do decent jump numbers, regularly here in the future.
Club skydiving needs a comeback in NZ, and I will help that happen. It all takes time, hard work and yes, passion.
But back to the Convo...
Handicams are bad MMMMMMMMMkay.
So don't be bad...
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
QuoteQuoteSo most American dz's use single tandem loads if they sell camera to them??
Yeah. Some will sell the 4th slot as a HP or mid-altitude jump for an upjumper, some times not.
-Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."
rhys 0
QuoteYeah. Some will sell the 4th slot as a HP or mid-altitude jump for an upjumper, some times not.
-Blind
Wow, my guess is that you will see this conversation come up more and more as each of these DZ's consider the use of hand cam. This move will increase their productivity and in the long run will allow the metamorphosis into a turbine DZ's.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
Ron 7
QuoteIt is more important for a student to see another person in freefall during the skydive than it is to see anything a handi cam can produce.
?!?!?!?!??!!?!?
?!?!?!?!?!? Hundreds of thousands of Tandems have been done with NO video guy.
Those folks got the experience of the "moment"
Lets not forget that many OV people are more busy doing what THEY want than giving the student a package they will remember.
http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_Disciplines_C3/Photography_and_Video_F7/Tandem_Video_Exits_-_inspiration_wanted_!_P1581742
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
cocheese 0
But those who were docked on by the vidiot had a cooler moment than those who made faces at a TI's wrist.
QuoteBut those who were docked on by the vidiot had a cooler moment than those who made faces at a TI's wrist.
...and what a great shot when he goes under them on his back!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
cocheese 0
And remember, without a vidiot, the parachute would never go "up" when ya open. How much is that worth?
Ron 7
Someone PM'ed me....
How many fatalities have been caused by a handicam?
How many have been caused by an outside video flyer?
I know the answers..... Zero have been killed by a HC.
There have been two fatalities directly due to an OV guy.
1. Maricopa, AZ - 26 Dec 1998
2. Skydive Wayne Co, Richmond IN - 02 July 2005
How many fatalities have been caused by a handicam?
How many have been caused by an outside video flyer?
I know the answers..... Zero have been killed by a HC.
There have been two fatalities directly due to an OV guy.
1. Maricopa, AZ - 26 Dec 1998
2. Skydive Wayne Co, Richmond IN - 02 July 2005
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
cocheese 0
How many have been saved by the video flyer?
How many have been saved by a handicam?
How many have been saved by a handicam?
Ron 7
QuoteHow many have been saved by the video flyer?
How many have been saved by a handicam?
Don't know... I shared my data, please share yours.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
cocheese 0
I'm done with this thread. 
DSE 3
QuoteQuoteQuoteProblems like? I have only heard of the one case.
I've logged three so far, from PM's. Two of which are mentioned in the Photo forum thread on small format camera.
If we know of three, how many are not known about?
Two were posted to Youtube; both are now gone.
How many wingsuit incidents have there been?
Deaths?
How do those effect your attitude towards wingsuits?
You're baiting the wrong person.
Wingsuit pilots most likely won't injure or kill innocent, uninformed, helpless people due to an error.
Tandem instructors most certainly can and have.
Really just the one problem repeated several times. I am not making an excuse, if I were the S&TA at the DZ, or a rep for the tandem company.... I'd ground the jumper the second I found out about it.
But, my point is that TI doing stupid things is not really new. Heck TI's not pulling the reserve has happened without the HC. But I have not seen any incidents that the HC *caused* (such as an entanglement).
I am all for some basic requirements before any jumper can jump a HC. Just like I am for requirements to jump a WS, or a high WL.
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