Hand Cams, "Only" ?

[matthewcline 0]

Since you used the SIGMA as your example.

UPT, the maker if the SIGMA as you know, has stated that a handle check is MANDATORY on all jumps with UPT equipment and defines that check as: Look at and Touch each handle in proper sequence.

But it is not HC fault it is not being done that falls on the T-I's.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[riggerrob 558]

"

Quote

...

the only handle that cannot be checked without comprimising the footage is the blue/bottom drogue release, but we all know what happens if that is dislodged. ..."

..................................................................

Just keep the student's body in frame while you swing your arm back and tap the drogue release handle with your thumb.
Post jump, you can use the extra footage to prove what a great "banana" arch the student was doing ... or give his friends something to laugh about!
Hah!
Hah!

• Quote

[skyrider 0]

Quote

>>And I haven't seen a single hand cam vid yet where there "was" a
>>handle check!

>why do you think sigmas have a clear window on the reserve pin?

>You don't have to touch something to check something.

Wait a minute. Are you saying that you no longer touch the handles because of the handycam? If so you are sacrificing safety for cheap video, and there's no excuse for that.

Yes he did, and this is 2 times me and Bill are on the same page! BTW, Bill, that cold ber offer is always open, I'd enjoy meeting you! (I can;t imagin we haven't)

[skyrider 0]

Quote

Since you used the SIGMA as your example.

UPT, the maker if the SIGMA as you know, has stated that a handle check is MANDATORY on all jumps with UPT equipment and defines that check as: Look at and Touch each handle in proper sequence.

But it is not HC fault it is not being done that falls on the T-I's.

Matt

Proven life saver!

[rhys 0]

Quote

Wait a minute. Are you saying that you no longer touch the handles because of the handycam?

I touch the handles, many times.

I do not touch the reserve or the blue drogue release between exit and opening.

But they are touched many times prior to exiting.

Before donning the rig, after donning the rig, walking to the plne, once I get in place in the plane, once i gear up and just before I exit.

They are in place when I exit, I can SEE the reserve handle and if the drougue release is dislodged...

... I guess I will soon find out.

Quote

If so you are sacrificing safety for cheap video, and there's no excuse for that.

I don't beleive I am sacrificing safety, it is pretty obvious you and the super_on_line_do_gooders think so. So tell me if you dislodge a drouge release, what the fuck do you think will be achieved by touching it?

I touch my handles in sequence 6+ times prior to exit. So about 24,000 times I have touched my tandem handles in sequence. I know the sequence.

The reserve handle I can see, just like the reserve pin, I can see it. I don't need to touch it. I trust my vision and if you needed to touch something to ensure it is in place, UPT would not put a clear window on the reserve flap.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

Since you used the SIGMA as your example.

UPT, the maker if the SIGMA as you know, has stated that a handle check is MANDATORY on all jumps with UPT equipment and defines that check as: Look at and Touch each handle in proper sequence.

But it is not HC fault it is not being done that falls on the T-I's.

Matt

So are UPT mains and reserves, but they still sell plenty of rigs to companies they KNOW use Icarus mains and precision reserves.

heck they even put custom 'daedalus' embroidery on a sigma for a rig that now dons a cross braced tandem main.

they have rules, but they are there to cover thier ass.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[matthewcline 0]

They only endorse the use of PD Reserves and Mains, correct.

But they also tell the Rig owners they are all, on their own, if they use none approved components.

As are any T-I's who do not follow UPT procedure.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[billvon 2,400]

>I do not touch the reserve or the blue drogue release between exit and
>opening.

Then you are violating the manufacturer's instructions to make a quick buck. (Which is pretty much what I predicted would happen.)

>So tell me if you dislodge a drouge release, what the fuck do you
>think will be achieved by touching it?

You will realize that you have a problem - and you will have 6000 feet instead of 1000 feet to deal with the problem.

Would you rather discover that you have a floating reserve handle right after exit, or at 5000 feet after a drogue lock? There are reasons that the manufacturer requires you to do handle touches.

[Ron 7]

Quote

I do not touch the reserve or the blue drogue release between exit and opening.

Then you are compromising the students safety and violating the rules of the manufacturer.

Quote

I don't beleive I am sacrificing safety, it is pretty obvious you and the super_on_line_do_gooders think so.

If *you* believe it or not, that does not matter. Call and ask Bill Booth about not doing a handles check and see if he is OK with it.

Quote

I trust my vision and if you needed to touch something to ensure it is in place, UPT would not put a clear window on the reserve flap.

The window allows you to do a VISUAL check. The exact same VISUAL check you had to do before they put a window. Nowhere does it state to touch the reserve pin before jumping.

You are violating the rules set forth by the manufacturer of the equipment. No matter how much you *think* you are not... You are.

And this is the only bad thing I can really find about HC's... Instructors break the rules due to having a HC and do not care.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhys 0]

Quote

>So tell me if you dislodge a drouge release, what the fuck do you
>think will be achieved by touching it?

You will realize that you have a problem - and you will have 6000 feet instead of 1000 feet to deal with the problem.

Would you rather discover that you have a floating reserve handle right after exit, or at 5000 feet after a drogue lock? There are reasons that the manufacturer requires you to do handle touches.

You are obviously not so good at comprehention, simply overlooked what i said or actually understand this but are feeding the others.

I CAN SEE THE RESERVE HANDLE, I check it. As well as the top snaps, my alti, my spot, the other groups, the freefall drift...

If the drouge release is dislodged I will have either;

An uneventful freefall if it just bumped off the hard housing. This happens regularly on old sigmas, ours are brand new, but I have seen many people jump like this.

or

My canopy will deploy and no handle touching will change that.

My concern is a horseshoe, but i can bet you nobody checks their handle between exit and drogue deployment, this is the critical time.

I will repeat AGAIN so you are quite clear.

Quote

I can see the reserve handle

, if it is dislodged I will disregard the video and replace it.

I am not going to argue with you lot, at least I am honest, many of you will talk shit (lies) so you look good online but in reality it is a different story.

I tell it how it is, and (beleive me I know) Many on here don't like being told how it is, they would rather live in a fairy land of percieved perfectness.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[riggerrob 558]

Late in the day, when you are hot and tired and thirsty, you see what you expect to see.
Touching handles provides a back-up, a double-check.

Not touching all your handles - in freefall - in the normal deployment sequence will get you fired from some DZs, like Perris Valley California!

[billvon 2,400]

>I CAN SEE THE RESERVE HANDLE, I check it.

There is a reason that handle TOUCHES are included in tandem freefall procedures - because they work better than looking. You have decided to skip them because of your use of handycam.

If you learn to fly, you will likely be taught to touch the items in the cockpit you are checking. Fuel selector valve - look at it and TOUCH it. Why? Because often when we are busy we see what we want to see. We'll see that fuel valve - yep, it's a fuel valve - and then quickly move on to the next step.

But if you feel it, you engage a different part of your brain. Your fingers will not go to the same place they did before because the valve selector is in the wrong place. It will not feel the same. You'll get a second level of warning that something is amiss.

Carb heat - look at it and PUSH it all the way forward. Why? Can't you see that it's in? Yep - but your tactile sense is better at making sure that it's really in the right place.

Same thing happens with tandems. Which is why most places out there include handle touches in their program. You have chosen not to do them because you think you are better than them, and want to make a quick buck on video - which is exactly what I predicted would happen many posts back. Looks like you've proven my point.

[mjosparky 3]

Military pre-jump checks are fairly lengthy and complicated compared to sports jumper. The JM has a set order that must be followed when pre-flighting a jumper. (someone correct me if needed) He is required to look at and touch the first item, leave his hand on that item while looks at and touches the second item with his other hand. He keep his hand on the second item while he looks at and touches the third item with the other hand ect………….Anytime you short cut safety for any reason you are wrong. To do it in the name of added revenue is criminal. Each tandem manufacture has established procedures for TI’s to follow before and during a jump. I am sure if you call them they will be able to give reasons for these procedures. This is just my opinion but I think a TI should handle the jump and let someone else catch the shot.

Sparky

Are you saying is that your procedures are better than the manufacture of the equipment and people who developed tandem?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rhys 0]

Quote

There is a reason that handle TOUCHES are included in tandem freefall procedures - because they work better than looking. You have decided to skip them because of your use of handycam.

If you learn to fly, you will likely be taught to touch the items in the cockpit you are checking. Fuel selector valve - look at it and TOUCH it. Why? Because often when we are busy we see what we want to see. We'll see that fuel valve - yep, it's a fuel valve - and then quickly move on to the next step.

Tell me;

WHY DO YOU THINK UPT MAKE A CLEAR WINDOW ON THE RESERVE FLAP?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,400]

>WHY DO YOU THINK UPT MAKE A CLEAR WINDOW ON THE RESERVE FLAP?

To try to reduce the risk to people who cannot be bothered to do a proper gear check. There are plenty of bad TM's out there; it is in UPT's best interest to protect them as well as the more conscientious TM's.

[rhys 0]

Quote

To try to reduce the risk to people who cannot be bothered to do a proper gear check. There are plenty of bad TM's out there; it is in UPT's best interest to protect them as well as the more conscientious TM's.

Define a proper reserve pin check?

On the UPT sigma brochure it clearly says;

Quote

Clear viewing window to facilitate pin check

Sigma brochure

I know DZ's that can do 500 jumps or more on a system between pack jobs, If you suggest the reserve closing loop should be touched every time it is checked, then that itself is a safety issue. You can keep your greasy mits off my reserve closing loop thank you.

Do you touch your cypres too each time you look at it??



Seems you make up 'fibs' to suit your argument.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[matthewcline 0]

Proper Reserve Pin Check for Pre-Flight:

Open Reserve Pin Cover
Inspect that the Pin is seated properly, lays flat.
Rigger's Seal is in place
With one hands thumb and forefinger grasp reserve cable above pin (now the Spectra cord)
With the other hands thumb and forefinger grasp the reserve cable at the reserve handle
Gently tug on the cable to ensure it is one piece and moves freely in the housing, taking care not to deploy the reserve, hence the one hand at the pin end.
Trace the RSL lanyard from the pin to the Collins loop (ensure the yellow cut away cable for the left riser goes through the RSL) and on to the RSL shackle, ensuring it is routed properly
Close the reserve pin cover

Continue with Pre-flight (mandatory for all SIGMA's prior to donning)

The reserve is now ready for a pre-exit inspection of looking through the clear window.

The clear window was developed so that the reserve pin cover did not need to be opened in the Aircraft.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[skyrider 0]

Quote

Late in the day, when you are hot and tired and thirsty, you see what you expect to see.
Touching handles provides a back-up, a double-check.

Not touching all your handles - in freefall - in the normal deployment sequence will get you fired from some DZs, like Perris Valley California!

That is a Garenteed fact!

[skyrider 0]

Quote

Proper Reserve Pin Check for Pre-Flight:

Open Reserve Pin Cover
Inspect that the Pin is seated properly, lays flat.
Rigger's Seal is in place
With one hands thumb and forefinger grasp reserve cable above pin (now the Spectra cord)
With the other hands thumb and forefinger grasp the reserve cable at the reserve handle
Gently tug on the cable to ensure it is one piece and moves freely in the housing, taking care not to deploy the reserve, hence the one hand at the pin end.
Trace the RSL lanyard from the pin to the Collins loop (ensure the yellow cut away cable for the left riser goes through the RSL) and on to the RSL shackle, ensuring it is routed properly
Close the reserve pin cover

Continue with Pre-flight (mandatory for all SIGMA's prior to donning)

The reserve is now ready for a pre-exit inspection of looking through the clear window.

The clear window was developed so that the reserve pin cover did not need to be opened in the Aircraft.

Matt

Plus this is a safe way to find out whether or not that little rolll in the dirt the last TI made coudl have lodged dirt in the reserve housing!

[rhys 0]

Quote

Proper Reserve Pin Check for Pre-Flight:

Open Reserve Pin Cover
Inspect that the Pin is seated properly, lays flat.
Rigger's Seal is in place
With one hands thumb and forefinger grasp reserve cable above pin (now the Spectra cord)
With the other hands thumb and forefinger grasp the reserve cable at the reserve handle
Gently tug on the cable to ensure it is one piece and moves freely in the housing, taking care not to deploy the reserve, hence the one hand at the pin end.
Trace the RSL lanyard from the pin to the Collins loop (ensure the yellow cut away cable for the left riser goes through the RSL) and on to the RSL shackle, ensuring it is routed properly
Close the reserve pin cover

Continue with Pre-flight (mandatory for all SIGMA's prior to donning)

The reserve is now ready for a pre-exit inspection of looking through the clear window.

The clear window was developed so that the reserve pin cover did not need to be opened in the Aircraft.

Matt

I have been through my tandem rating 3 times, NZ, Australia and USA.

These procedures were not explained to me, not once.

Now you only have the information that is available to you.

I have worked at many dropzones with many instructors, and you know what...

None of them did what you have explained prior to every jump, this is a 25 jump check procedure as far as I am aware.

Would you care to link us all to the correspondence from the manufacturer UPT, pertaining to the procedures you just explained that were not written by you, and that specify that this is mandatory.

The brochure says nothing about the clear window being for pin checks in the plane, it say for checking pin (period).

The window is the whole flap on our rigs and i can see the rsl lanyard and we have spectra rip cords.

The swage cannot be faulty as there is none and I can see the stitching clarly through the window. The larks head on the handle is checked every 25 jumps, and we do not roll around in the dirt.

It seems to me, I maybe wrong, but you would not last very long at many of the dz's I worked at, this is the reality, not my doing, maybe wrong, but the reality.

And these are some of the busiest dropzones in the world, that the manufacturers work hand over feet to get the contracts for.

This reason you work to is all about litigation, and reality is different, here in NZ and many other places we are not subject to the ludicrous litigation policies that you have, that are put in place by and for greedy assholes.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[matthewcline 0]

The brochure does not go over any procedure for Pre-flight, so it is not a good training reference material.

I got this from Bill Booth, Mark Procos and T.K. Donley, who all taught my I/E Course. This info is in Module 9 of the UPT Tandem Instructor Certification Course (Current PP version and covered in the VHS/DVD).

I have worked at some very busy places, making 20+ tandem Jumps a day at times.

I have jumped at some pretty busy places and seen some different Techniques, I use the one I posted.

I was just answering the question that you asked of Bill, but Bill did state a while back he was not a current T-I so I thought I would help out.

HC is here to stay and is a good cheaper alternative for DZO's who can't afford to let the chance go by to make the customer happy, for example; a couple who wants to jump together. But it takes all of what, 1.5 seconds to look and touch all the handles? And since it is required by a Manufacturer who has retained its right to pull ratings, seems like a small concession to make for employment.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Define a proper reserve pin check?

This is how UPT defines it.

---

SIGMA TANDEM SYSTEM OWNER’S MANUAL

SIGMA TANDEM “PIN CHECK”

Back of Rig - Top Down

1. Look through window in the yoke and check the Cypres.
2. Open reserve pin cover, check that the yellow breakaway cable is threaded through the Collin’s Lanyard loop inside the yoke.
3. Check the reserve pin seating, RSL connection, and loop condition. Close pin cover.
4. Open the main cover flap and check the: A. Routing of the closing loop, B. Routing of the drogue bridle out of the top of the disk, C. Colored kill line in the drogue bridle set window, D. Locking pin and safety pin seating,
and E. Spectra Ripcord routing toward the housings. No twists.
5. Check the drogue bridle routing to the pouch.
6. Check that the drogue is well placed in the pouch.
7. Check that both drogue release handles are in place.
8. Check the general condition of container.
Front of Rig – Top Down

1. Check that the riser covers are correctly closed.
2. Check that the 3-Ring releases are assembled correctly.
3. Check that the RSL is hooked up to right riser and routed correctly.
4. Check that the breakaway handle is in place.
5. Check that the reserve ripcord is in its pocket, with slack in the cable.
6. Check the general condition of the harness webbing and hardware.

---

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

So you don't do handle checks (to make a bit more money selling cheap video) and you don't follow the owner's manual instructions for inspecting the gear you use. And you actually defend these practices as meeting your DZ's standards of safety.

I'm thinking better to quit while you are ahead. Posting on a public forum that your DZ does not follow standard safety procedures for students could be problematic.

[rhys 0]

Quote

So you don't do handle checks

actually I do at least a half a dozen of them every jump.

Quote

and you don't follow the owner's manual instructions for inspecting the gear you use. And you actually defend these practices as meeting your DZ's standards of safety.

I check the Collins Lanyard by opening the riser cover.

I check the pin through the window, and I am happy with that procedure.

heck I even have PD canopies in there right now but will be swapping them out for Icarus after summer.

Quote

I'm thinking better to quit while you are ahead. Posting on a public forum that your DZ does not follow standard safety procedures for students could be problematic.

The 'public forum thing' is why many people try to be super_online_do_gooders.

In reality there are many many videos out there on line from many dropzones, they will show that it is not only I that will show the world online that they do not do the bottom/blue handle check in free fall.

So it is already out there, I choose to be honest, unlike many here.

every single one of our videos are uploaded to the net.

So no point in lying.

So I guess the conclusion is that hand cam is crap, unsafe and not worth the money.

Yet 80% of our customers still buy it for NZ$165 after watching the demo video.


But I am just a greedy corporate drogue whore with no morals.

but I am an honest one.

good day.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Quote

Define a proper reserve pin check?

This is how UPT defines it.

---

SIGMA TANDEM SYSTEM OWNER’S MANUAL

SIGMA TANDEM “PIN CHECK”

Back of Rig - Top Down

1. Look through window in the yoke and check the Cypres.
2. Open reserve pin cover, check that the yellow breakaway cable is threaded through the Collin’s Lanyard loop inside the yoke.
3. Check the reserve pin seating, RSL connection, and loop condition. Close pin cover.
4. Open the main cover flap and check the: A. Routing of the closing loop, B. Routing of the drogue bridle out of the top of the disk, C. Colored kill line in the drogue bridle set window, D. Locking pin and safety pin seating,
and E. Spectra Ripcord routing toward the housings. No twists.
5. Check the drogue bridle routing to the pouch.
6. Check that the drogue is well placed in the pouch.
7. Check that both drogue release handles are in place.
8. Check the general condition of container.
Front of Rig – Top Down

1. Check that the riser covers are correctly closed.
2. Check that the 3-Ring releases are assembled correctly.
3. Check that the RSL is hooked up to right riser and routed correctly.
4. Check that the breakaway handle is in place.
5. Check that the reserve ripcord is in its pocket, with slack in the cable.
6. Check the general condition of the harness webbing and hardware.

---

Sparky

....................................................................

Strong Enterprises encourages a similar pre-flight inspection on their Dual Hawk System. Any Strong-rated TI who does not want to perform a similar pre-flight inspection should surrender their rating!

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner