Hand Cams, "Only" ?

[skyrider 0]

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I think nothing can replace quality video (not even talking about stills....) from an outside videoperson...

Depends.
If the video is done good, then i agree.
But a lot of tandemvideos i have seen is really bad.
You can clearly see that all involved in the video just thinks its another day at work just doing what i have to do.
And the videoedit is the same quality.
The end result of it is the tandemfactory video, nothing that makes this video any differnt from the next.

Is that quality video?

No, that us camera people that need to find another job! I always pushed to make each vidoe better than the one before, and as personal as possible for the student , making sure "They" are the star, not me, not the TI...The Student...

Hand cam combined with outside video, is without a doubt, a suprerior product! Better product, more customers, brought in by watching said product...(addressing it from the business end)

[DSE 3]

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Is it just me, or is this robbing Tandem students of a chance to see the actuall exit, (the part all their friends love) and getting that third person view?

I understand it is a great way to sell tandems,(once) simple fact, it is cheaper, BUt to not even "Offer" a camera person view, to me, is not only cheap, but cheating a new jumper of the best angle/perspective of video, which will sell other tandems!

I didnt; realise some DZ's were doing this now , until recently!

Sure it is a cost cutting solution, one less asss in the plane , now a small cessna can take two tandems, instead of one with video, and a fun jumper...but at the cost of returning/new jumpers, IMO!

hand cam vids won't attract anyone, they don't even come close to showing the excitment of skydiving!

There are good handcam vidiots out there, damn few, but a few. It provides a good perspective for one aspect of the skydive, and it frees up a slot on the plane. On small DZ's, I see this as somewhat essential. Can't take 6 in a 182, and couples like to jump together...
My personal concern about handcams is the very wrong thought that any TI can manage it. We've already had one fatality that hasn't been confirmed as being related to the hand-cam, but it surely appears as such.
Check out the TI's that post video of their tandem cutaways where they don't bother to pull reserve because the MARD got it. They film the deployment thinking it's "cool."
In other words, the camera is a distraction to experienced TI's too.

[skyrider 0]

Yep, the safety factor is a big concern also!

[airtwardo 6]

...the ole economics vs. safety quandary.

It'll play out over time, if a rise in handy-cam equip tandem injuries spikes...who knows they may have to get an additional rating.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyrider 0]

I still say the econimcs is the part that doesn't play out, To not even "Offer" outside video is throwing away future customers!

If "money" is the game, make the price of proffessional video fit the bill! At least "offer" it!

[airtwardo 6]

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I still say the economics is the part that doesn't play out, To not even "Offer" outside video is throwing away future customers!

If "money" is the game, make the price of professional video fit the bill! At least "offer" it!

I don't disagree with most of what you're sayin' Rider.

Having both makes a better product, there is a possibility that safety may become a concern regarding hand-cams...

All I'm saying is the trend has already started and it's building speed.

I can understand where in some circumstances it makes sense...as long as safety isn't compromised.

I do however think you may be overstating the return customer value of the outside video.

I don't think a slightly higher quality presentation will pull someone in that's on the fence regarding possible future involvement.

It's a bit of an intangible value that would be tough to really measure.

To the 'untrained' eye, a skydive is a skydive...I'm at best a hack as a video guy, yet to my wuffo friends that see my stuff...it's great.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyrider 0]

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I still say the economics is the part that doesn't play out, To not even "Offer" outside video is throwing away future customers!

If "money" is the game, make the price of professional video fit the bill! At least "offer" it!

I don't disagree with most of what you're sayin' Rider.

Having both makes a better product, there is a possibility that safety may become a concern regarding hand-cams...

All I'm sayiny is the trend has already started and it's building speed.
I can understand where in some circumstances it makes sense...as long as safety isn't compromised.

I do however think you may be overstating the return customer value of the outside video.

I don't think a slightly higher quality presentation will pull someone in that's on the fence regard possible future involvement.
It's a bit of an intangible value that would be tough to really measure.

To the 'untrained' eye, a skydive is a skydive...I'm at best a hack as a video guy, yet to my wuffo friends that see my stuff...it's great.

Perhaps...I just knwo I hand MANY requiest arrive at perris, do to the fact thier friends had my video,a nd they loved what they saw!

For tandem factories...Yep, guess it is the way to go, especially if your near large cities, where a good product doesn;t matter as much, (plenty of suckers)

I noticed the same thing in the motorcycle business, shitty shops still got plenty of work , because there were so many unknowing customers!...(BUT, the shops that did quility, grew into warehouse busineses..)

I guess as you pointed out, it is part of our evolution as a business...no body gives a shit about the product, they simply want the profit!

[Ron 7]

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Is it just me, or is this robbing Tandem students of a chance to see the actuall exit, (the part all their friends love) and getting that third person view?

but cheating a new jumper of the best angle/perspective of video, which will sell other tandems!

And outside video 'cheats' the pax of the canopy ride (maybe the most excited they will be).

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hand cam vids won't attract anyone, they don't even come close to showing the excitment of skydiving!

Simple fact is that both outside video (OV) and Handycam Video (HC) BOTH provide shots that the other can't. But you are claiming that OV provides better video than HC and I can tell you that the HC shot shows the student right after opening and that makes a great shot.

Now as some have said... Both is so much better. But looking at economics, HC only makes so much sense. You save a seat on the AC, the TI gets extra money.

My only issue really is that I see a bunch of videos where the TI does not do a handles check and as others have said there are videos of TI's not pulling the reserve handle sobrhey can video the mal....

Now for those that think the video guy is better.... Well, they have some views that are better, but economics will win out. One DZO has pretty much told the video folks that he will continue to use them as long as their is a want, but that more and more people are skipping OV and going to HC.

The DZ I am at currently offers all three options. OV, HC and both.... But I see more and more skipping OV.

I personally think OV on tandems is dying out.

For those that claim it will kill the business.... People said that tandems would kill real skydiving.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TampaPete 35]

Jim –

An additional rating is an interesting question in itself. You haven’t chimed in on the “Letter from Tandem Manufacturer’s” thread. I think there is some connectivity between these two threads.

Has anyone conferred with the Tandem manufacturer’s and solicited their opinion on hand cams? We know their opinion with respect to minimum age. What is their opinion with respect to hand cams.

I would be interested in their point of view in relation to the safety aspects of hand cams and tandems. What if a hand cam entangles with the drogue and doesn’t allow a complete cutaway of the main and results in an entanglement with the reserve?

Any thoughts?

[airtwardo 6]

...and I can tell you that the HC shot shows the student right after opening and that makes a great shot.

For example, I took a friend and his son down for tandems a few months back, dad got OS video the son HC...after reviewing both...my friend said he'd wished he'd gone with a Hand Cam video like his son because of the up close and personal quality of the excitement after the canopy was open, that and the banter between student & instructor was quite entertaining.



Now from 'my' eye, in this case the outside video has a much better quality overall...but to the 'customer' the close-up was all that mattered.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyrider 0]

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Is it just me, or is this robbing Tandem students of a chance to see the actuall exit, (the part all their friends love) and getting that third person view?

but cheating a new jumper of the best angle/perspective of video, which will sell other tandems!

And outside video 'cheats' the pax of the canopy ride (maybe the most excited they will be).

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hand cam vids won't attract anyone, they don't even come close to showing the excitment of skydiving!

Simple fact is that both outside video (OV) and Handycam Video (HC) BOTH provide shots that the other can't. But you are claiming that OV provides better video than HC and I can tell you that the HC shot shows the student right after opening and that makes a great shot.

Now as some have said... Both is so much better. But looking at economics, HC only makes so much sense. You save a seat on the AC, the TI gets extra money.

My only issue really is that I see a bunch of videos where the TI does not do a handles check and as others have said there are videos of TI's not pulling the reserve handle sobrhey can video the mal....

Now for those that think the video guy is better.... Well, they have some views that are better, but economics will win out. One DZO has pretty much told the video folks that he will continue to use them as long as their is a want, but that more and more people are skipping OV and going to HC.

The DZ I am at currently offers all three options. OV, HC and both.... But I see more and more skipping OV.
I personally think OV on tandems is dying out.

For those that claim it will kill the business.... People said that tandems would kill real skydiving.

My point exactly on teh "Offer" it....

Did I say "Kill" business? NO, I said it will not get the return busines that a proffesionally filmed outside vid will, fewer friends thinking"I GOTTA try that" when they watch the vid!

Only thing ever going to "kill" this life/business, is Ourselves, or the Feds!

[Rover 9]

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What if a hand cam entangles with the drogue and doesn’t allow a complete cutaway of the main and results in an entanglement with the reserve?

Any thoughts?

Very difficult to do as the handcam is worn on the left hand and the drogue is deployed with the right. If the drogue were to entangle with the handcam on the left hand some other serious shit is going down.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[airtwardo 6]

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Jim –

An additional rating is an interesting question in itself. You haven’t chimed in on the “Letter from Tandem Manufacturer’s” thread. I think there is some connectivity between these two threads.

Has anyone conferred with the Tandem manufacturer’s and solicited their opinion on hand cams? We know their opinion with respect to minimum age. What is their opinion with respect to hand cams.

I would be interested in their point of view in relation to the safety aspects of hand cams and tandems. What if a hand cam entangles with the drogue and doesn’t allow a complete cutaway of the main and results in an entanglement with the reserve?

Any thoughts?

You're probably askin' the wrong guy on that one.

I have always held firm to the 'old' doctrine of wearing gloves only on my hands.

It's a personal choice but has always worked for me, I like having zero additional snag points on the part of me that's moving around all the time.

I wear helmet or foot camera, smoke brackets, all kinds of additional junk ~ snapped, tied, taped and stapled all over me doing demos, but my altimeter is 1/2 way up my forearm.

That being said...I think the hand-cam thing is a work in progress at this point, I've seen some good stuff coming from highly qualified and current TM's.
~ hard to say if there are any great number of situations that went sideways because of the camera because it's likely something ya wouldn't necessarily brag about.

But if there are any real concerns about the switch from OS to HC videos...that is where it would be, snag potential and distraction.

We've all seen the cut-away vids.


If the industry wanted to be proactive the powers that be just might wanna consider a page or two in the manual for examiners to go over just so it's talked about and everybody at least gives the downside some thought.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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...and I can tell you that the HC shot shows the student right after opening and that makes a great shot.

For example, I took a friend and his son down for tandems a few months back, dad got OS video the son HC...after reviewing both...my friend said he'd wished he'd gone with a Hand Cam video like his son because of the up close and personal quality of the excitement after the canopy was open, that and the banter between student & instructor was quite entertaining.



Now from 'my' eye, in this case the outside video has a much better quality overall...but to the 'customer' the close-up was all that mattered.

And that's the key to this whole argument.

A "good" tandem video has the intro interview, training, gear up, pre-board interview, boarding the plane/waving goodbye, plane ride up, exit/freefall (usually shown both normal speed and repeated slow speed), landing and landing/post jump interview.
Handcam gives after opening/under canopy scenes at the cost of exit, wide shot in freefall and the view from the ground of landing.

MOST STUDENTS DON'T CARE HOW "GOOD" IT IS. They want to relive the memory, and show their friends. Showing the nerves before the jump (and on the plane), the thrill of freefall and the exhilaration after are as important to them as well framed, well lit properly shot video (you know, that technical crap we actually notice and care about).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Ron 7]

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Did I say "Kill" business? NO, I said it will not get the return busines that a proffesionally filmed outside vid will, fewer friends thinking"I GOTTA try that" when they watch the vid!

And the post right above yours shows how one person wished he had gotten the HC vid instead if the OV.

You keep claiming that the lack of OV will prevent others from coming out.... But you have not provided any data, and the fact is that most people love any video they get.

And the real 'money shot' is the interview after the canopy opens.

You keep mentioning 'professional' video... You can be professional with HC video as well.

Time will tell, but I think OV will go the way of the dodo. If for no other reason than the economics of the situation and that the Avg tandem student will not know the difference....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 6]

What are YOUR thoughts Ron, on the question posed to me regarding possible additional training or ratings for TM's with a HC?

What do you think of newer TM's taking on the additional task?

Should there maybe be a competency or currency evaluation prior to opening the gate, or do you not see it as a major concern?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skyrider 0]

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What are YOUR thoughts Ron, on the question posed to me regarding possible additional training or ratings for TM's with a HC?

What do you think of newer TM's taking on the additional task?

Should there maybe be a competency or currency evaluation prior to opening the gate, or do you not see it as a major concern?

Plus the lack of handle checks in freefall!

[Ron 7]

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What are YOUR thoughts Ron, on the question posed to me regarding possible additional training or ratings for TM's with a HC?

I am not so sure additional "official" training should be required.

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Should there maybe be a competency or currency evaluation prior to opening the gate, or do you not see it as a major concern?

I think that just like new jumpers needing 200 jumps before they can jump a camera, that some number of tandems should be required before the additional task of shooting the video with a HC is added.

For full disclosure, I have never jumped a HC. But the DZO at the DZ I am working at now told me that I will have to start jumping one. Now, I have a bunch of Tandems on a Strong, but this DZ uses Sigmas and I have not jumped a Sigma since 2002. So the DZO has told me NOT to jump a HC till I get 20-40 jumps on the Sigma.

So I think that the USPA should require exp with Tandems before you can use a HC. And anytime you change something, you should back up a bit and get used to the new system.

So I would suggest:
200 tandems before using a HC
25 jumps on a new system.

As for the TI not doing handle checks...... (If I ruled the world) You would not be doing Tandems if you didn't do a handles check, or if you filmed your cutaway rather than pulled the reserve handle.

On a side note... someone mentioned a tandem where a HC might have contributed to a problem.... I did a search and found nothing... Can someone shoot me a link or give me some more data?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Para5-0 0]

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So I would suggest:
200 tandems before using a HC
25 jumps on a new system.

+1 to include all special needs tandems(heavy, old, fragile, prostetics, quads, paras, or any tandem requiring special attention to detail.

[Ron 7]

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+1 to include all special needs tandems(heavy, old, fragile, prostetics, quads, paras, or any tandem requiring special attention to detail.

A good point. About a mth ago an 85 year old guy came out to do a tandem. He was assigned to me. Now I have ~1k Strong jumps, but this was on a Sigma and I only had about 10 recent Sigma jumps. I asked the DZO to give the guy to another TI.

Could I have taken him? Sure. I feel I would have been fine. BUT, I only had 10 jumps on a Sigma main in 8 years. It was safer to give that jump away to a more experienced guy.

To the DZO's credit, he had no issue with me doing that. I know that some DZO's would not be as understanding and would have given me grief.... I don't work for those DZO's.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[shah269 0]

As a student who just got his A and a guy who will most likely be a student for life.
Seeing how the price of video cameras is going down so low and such devices as the GoPro being on sale at Costco for about $200. Simply having one on your instructors helmet and having them discuss with you quickly what you did right and wrong throughout your flight is a real advantage!
With respect to hand cams and what not used as an extra bit of cash for the owners of drop zones? I've seen both. And both have their place. But if you ask me if I were going to recommend one to a friend. I would have to say the independent camera man is a much better option. It just gives better perspective of the experience.
But that's just my thoughts as a student and a guy who would like his friends to at least jump once.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Andy9o8 0]

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On a side note... someone mentioned a tandem where a HC might have contributed to a problem.... I did a search and found nothing... Can someone shoot me a link or give me some more data?

I think it was this thread.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3951422;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Tandem mal & cutaway from a HC perspective. Some posters in the thread criticized the TI for seeming overly-concerned with getting everything in-frame, keeping his left arm extended through the whole sequence, rather than using his left hand to assist his right in trying to clear the mal (line twists). Although I'm not a TI, I watched the video when the thread first went up, and I think the criticisms were reasonable.

Apparently, word musta got back to the TI that he needed to cover his ass, for the video has now been "removed by user" from YouTube.

[riggerrob 558]

Caveat: We all know that Americans HATE to hear about things that were not invented in the USA...


The Australian Parachute Federation has extensive experience in writing guidelines for TIs wearing hand-cam.
Last time I checked, the APF said that TIs needed a minimum of 100 tandem jumps before strapping on a hand-cam and they also needed a briefing by their Chief Instructor.
They are supposed to do one or two solo jumps wearing a hand-cam and then do one or two H/C tandem jumps with a licensed skydiver strapped on the front (similar to tandem recurrency dives).
All the details are posted on the APF's website.

Keep in mind that Australian tandem factories often do well in excess of 100 tandems per month, so it is probable that a young Australian TI could strap on a hand-cam one month after earning his TI rating.

In conclusion, there is no need for USPA, CSPA, BPA, etc. to reinvent the wheel. They would be far wiser to merely follow the Australian lead.

[Ron 7]

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Caveat: We all know that Americans HATE to hear about things that were not invented in the USA...

Anyone else just see a blank post????

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Last item I checked, the APF said that TIs needed a minimum of 100 tandem jumps before straping on a hand-cam and they also needed a briefing by their Chief Instructor.
They are supposed to do one or two solo jumps wearing a hand-cam and then do one or two H/C tandem jumps with a licensed skydiver strapped on the front (similar to tandem recurrency dives)

I'd agree with everything but the two HC tandems with the licensed jumper. A TI that has some exp with both the HC and Tandems should have no issue that would need them... IMO.

But I also agree there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 6]

Keep in mind that Australian tandem factories often do well in excess of 100 tandems per month...