Do you think small format cameras are generally safe or unsafe???

[Lastchance 0]

No. You didn't miss anything. This shit has been fucking rubbed into the ground time and time again.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

[danielcroft 2]

Cameras are totally safe, skydivers aren't.

I landed out once because I was too busy filming a sunset. Pretty dumb move and I was lucky that there was an out nearby. No injuries, just a copped a lot of shit from my friends (and myself).

[topdocker 0]

Ridestrong, focus on your skydiving not getting video.

There is nothing up there that the video is worth more than your life. All these people have weighed in against your joice, and yet you stand defiant. If you are not willing to listen to sound reasoning and experience, then perhaps you should realize you are the very reason minimum numbers for things keep moving up.

top

Jump more, post less!

[monkycndo 0]

But Top,

how can he focus on his skydiving unless his buddy with less than 200 jumps can wear a gopro to capture said skydiving and allow for RS to review those mad skilz of his.

I know, I know.....no need to listen to anyone that doesn't agree because we are all skygods trying to hold you back. Seeing that those folks that wear a camera before the jump number minimums will never admit they shouldn't, how many will admit to themselves or even realize that the close call they had was due to the camera. I seriously doubt they will add their experience to the incident list. So yeah, unless there is actual damage(human or gear) which can't be hidden or ignored, there will never be true statistics or detailed examples of incidents/close calls. Just means people do a better job of keeping quiet around the dz about when they fuckup because there is no evidence to catch them and document the incident, unless they are dumb enough to post it on youtube to show their whuffo friends the badazz close call with death.


*sigh*

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[jimmytavino 16]

generally Unsafe.. by the very nature of "being small"

that's an insidious characteristic....
because people who would likely NOT add a full sized DSLR or even a moderate sized video camera to their jumping repertoire,
sometimes make the mistake of thinking... small = innocent or harmless..

plus the low cost tends to lead some jumpers into thinking.. "why Not"??

in this way , it's possible to let ones' guard down, and not realize it...
in years past, a video person generally concentrated on Outside video only... rarely even taking grips with those that are in the air , at the same time..
Not so, with small format cameras.. LOts of people are actively IN the skydive which i suppose is OK. but also tends to result in less than optimum footage....
used to be a time when being a freefall video person, took patience, practice and a willingness to be "on the outside, looking In"...
not so anymore...
Sure we all say " well I'LL be careful" and generally most are...
but distractions can happen... and sometimes can negatively affect the outcome of a jump...
minimums MUST still be met. though I would advocate 4 or 500 jumps , rather than 200...
being a freefall camera person should require a lot more than simply having " enough of a credit limit, remaining on a charge card, to BUY the camera"..
imo
jmy
A 3914
D 12122

[jrh 0]

I mostly lurk on these forums, but I'm curious about something...

When I see references to a person with "lowish" jump numbers jumping a camera, what is considered "lowish"?

I'm aware of the SIM recommendation to have at least a C license, therefore 200+ jumps before jumping a camera, but what are you guys referring to as low?

Sub-200? < 500? < 1000?

I'm assuming a brand new C license is considered a minimum. What do experienced camera flyers recommend as a "comfortable" amount of jumps, rather than a minimum?

Sorry if this has been covered in other threads. I did a quick search and couldn't find any mention of specific numbers.

[jrjny 0]

I don't think they add any more risk than say:

jumping at a new dz
jumping with a new jumper
trying a new canopy
jumping in moderate to high winds
unexpected winds on final
jumping with other things on your mind
jumping at a lower than normal altitude
exiting last on a long spot
not enough separation on the jump run
not checking your reserve pin/ripcord
not checking your main pin
not using an RSL
not using an AAD
etc...

Certainly much less risky than high performance landings..

So, probably as risky as about 1/3rd of all skydives performed today

[Ron 7]

Quote

I don't think they add any more risk than say:

Your are wrong on so many levels.... And I say this as a person who has done pretty much everything on your list many, many times.

Now that I have some time... I'll break down why.

Things you listed that are stupid and you have 100% control over and are easy to fix:

jumping in moderate to high winds - Don't
exiting last on a long spot - Go around
not enough separation on the jump run - Wait
not checking your reserve pin/ripcord - Do it
not checking your main pin - Do it
jumping with other things on your mind - Don't jump


Things that you have ZERO control over:

unexpected winds on final


Things that you would be smart to plan a dive for and not treat like a normal jump:

jumping at a new dz - Pull higher
trying a new canopy - Pull higher

Things that are not a big deal:

not using an RSL - Pull both handles... I have 4500 jumps without an RSL
not using an AAD - I have 5010 and not had an AAD fire.
jumping with a new jumper - AFF rated... I do it all the time.
jumping at a lower than normal altitude - So????? Pull altitudes do not change.

Jumping with a camera is like none of them. MAYBE like a new canopy at first.

See, some people just do not understand WHY a camera is not "just another skydive".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[stratostar 5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3y_7y2TxVU

Enjoy

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[shropshire 0]

That, Sir, is fucking brilliant.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[stratostar 5]

As much as I would like to credit for that.... it's not my handy work..... But it's making the rounds on faceboook.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[jimmytavino 16]

here's what can happen..

first jump with camera and maybe also, the next FEW...

"i'm gonna just turn it on,,, forget about it, and make the skydive"..

great... good plan...

But then, people start looking at the footage, and thinking,," Damn,, if i would have turned my head a LITTLE bit here,,, or made a point of LOOKING more exactly there,,,, i would have gotten a BETTER video...

and then while checking the canopy flight footage, or the landing,, people start noticing, Damn.. if i had just kept focused on my pal, as he did that cool fly by, or if i had raised my chin...RIGHT There.... i would have gotten REAL good video..

so guess what??? NOW things start to change, and camera wearing jumpers, DO start to look... just a bit longer,,, and Do start to THINK about what the camera might be seeing, and start making Changes !! to that orginal promise, of "I'm just gonna turn it on and forget about it..."

and at some point, something could sneak up and grab you, or grab someone ELSE. or DIStract You.....just enough...

it might not happen right away, BUT at some point it will happen... and how the jumper reacts to it,, could be the difference between a near- miss and a non near miss.....
and a Non near Miss can be bad news...
It does start to make a difference,, in all phases of the jump..
like i said earlier....
insidious...
gotta be careful
jt

[Lastchance 0]

LMFAO.

I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

[Andy0689 0]

Quote

here's what can happen..

first jump with camera and maybe also, the next FEW...

"i'm gonna just turn it on,,, forget about it, and make the skydive"..

great... good plan...

But then, people start looking at the footage, and thinking,," Damn,, if i would have turned my head a LITTLE bit here,,, or made a point of LOOKING more exactly there,,,, i would have gotten a BETTER video...

and then while checking the canopy flight footage, or the landing,, people start noticing, Damn.. if i had just kept focused on my pal, as he did that cool fly by, or if i had raised my chin...RIGHT There.... i would have gotten REAL good video..

so guess what??? NOW things start to change, and camera wearing jumpers, DO start to look... just a bit longer,,, and Do start to THINK about what the camera might be seeing, and start making Changes !! to that orginal promise, of "I'm just gonna turn it on and forget about it..."

and at some point, something could sneak up and grab you, or grab someone ELSE. or DIStract You.....just enough...

it might not happen right away, BUT at some point it will happen... and how the jumper reacts to it,, could be the difference between a near- miss and a non near miss.....
and a Non near Miss can be bad news...
It does start to make a difference,, in all phases of the jump..
like i said earlier....
insidious...
gotta be careful
jt

+1.
I have a contour that I wear for hiking, skiing and climbing (not jumping) and have noticed that when I have the camera on, I'm thinking about the footage and what the camera is seeing. Still pay attention to what I'm doing but the camera is one more thing on my mind; where I'm looking is where the camera is looking, keeping as still as I can so the footage isn't shaky, etc. When I get back and view the footage, I take note of adjustments I need to make next time I shoot.

How could skydiving be any different from being on your feet? Sad thing is that no matter how much the subject is brought up here, those who are going to wear the cameras, small format or larger, will do so regardless of how many times it's brought. The arguments to convince the jumpers with low numbers not to wear them shouldn't be started here. I think it's gotta be better done face to face even if it means that you skip a jump with someone wearing one.

To jump with someone you say nothing to or advise not to wear is the same thing as advocating it, if not, then that you at least approve of it. How many of us opponents of small-form factor cameras/low jump numbers have made a jump with someone wearing one? I did a jump with someone wearing who had 60 jumps and was admittedly barely jumping enough to stay current. Jump went off without a hitch and he even put together a good video. When I saw the camera, I was thinking that I have low jump numbers so who am I to tell him otherwise. I even rationalized that the DZO had to know about it but never asked. I thought about it afterwards and came to the conclusion that I won't jump with a low-number vidiot again. A large percentage of the time, nothing will go wrong, but the one time it does, I'm sure one of the first thoughts will be that the person shouldn't have been wearing a camera. In taking responsibility for my own jump, I'll have put myself at a higher risk by exiting the plane at the same time.

With safety day coming up, would this be a good topic? Maybe not as good as canopy piloting which has contributed to a larger number of injuries over the past year. Perhaps, as a community, we all just need to come together and let folks with low numbers that if you're wearing a camera, you'll be jumping alone. In other words, when 6 folks show up to dirt dive, regardless of personal experience, a unified 5 have to agree that either the camera is out or the jumper is out.

Andy
I'll believe it when I see it on YouTube!

[wmw999 2,122]

That is exactly right. The camera becomes an active part of the skydive, one that you're really not planning on. Small-format cameras aren't any different from larger ones, except that they're more comfortable.

If jumping without an AAD or RSL are something you need to think about, then you really shouldn't be jumping with a camera.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ridestrong 1]

There seem to be some people that CHOOSE to think about the camera more so than others. As I'm sure there are others that can 'turn it on and forget it'.

I still only have about 20 jumps with a camera but I can say that with 100% certainty that I have never once been on a jump and thought, 'I gotta turn my head more this way or that way to get that shot' or anything of the sort. When I get out of the plane the only thing I'm thinking about is the dive plan, fall rate, taking docks, etc... (must be mad skillz right )

For those that plan on becoming jump videographers the camera, angles, light, etc.. are some things you may need to be thinking more about. But for the others that are just doing fun jumps with their buddies there is no NEED to be thinking about those things.

If you are one of those people that can't stay focused on the main task at hand because you have a camera on your head, then maybe you shouldn't jump one. But that does not go for everyone.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Andy9o8 0]

OK fine; you have mad skilz of concentration.
No point to discussing it with you further.

[wmw999 2,122]

Quote

If you are one of those people that can't stay focused on the main task at hand because you have a camera on your head, then maybe you shouldn't jump one.

And maybe the penalty for discovering the hard way that you are affected by the camera when you're inexperienced is great enough to have it be a strong recommendation not to wear one when you're inexperienced.

How many 12-year-olds can drive safely?
How many drunk people drive home without getting into wrecks?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ridestrong 1]

Quote

Quote

If you are one of those people that can't stay focused on the main task at hand because you have a camera on your head, then maybe you shouldn't jump one.

And maybe the penalty for discovering the hard way that you are affected by the camera when you're inexperienced is great enough to have it be a strong recommendation not to wear one when you're inexperienced.

How many 12-year-olds can drive safely?
How many drunk people drive home without getting into wrecks?

Wendy P.

Those are absurd comparisons..

and no I don't believe that cameras posses the ability of mind control.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[wmw999 2,122]

Why are they absurd?

We're talking about inexperienced people performing complex life-critical tasks. (for that, the drunk driver isn't comparable, but the 12-year-old, or a 14-year-old, is).

Some can do it just fine. But they're still not allowed to.

Anyway, why still fighting the debate? You're jumping a camera now.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[monkycndo 0]

[reply

Anyway, why still fighting the debate? You're jumping a camera now.

Wendy P.

[ridestrong 1]

Quote

(for that, the drunk driver isn't comparable, but the 12-year-old, or a 14-year-old, is).

Some can do it just fine. But they're still not allowed to.

You tell me why law doesn't allow 12-year-old kids to drive... and then I will tell you why that comparison doesn't apply to adults and skydiving.

Quote

Anyway, why still fighting the debate? You're jumping a camera now.

Your right... I have made the adult choice to wear a camera. I understand the potential risks involved in that decision. As an adult I have developed the ability to assess risk and to appropriately respond to expected or unexpected situations that may arise.

This thread was designed to ask a general question, "Do you think small format cameras are generally safe or unsafe???" Not about getting any dz.comers approval for me or anyone else to jump one.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[wmw999 2,122]

Law doesn't allow 12-year-olds to drive because they generally, owing to lack of experience and maturity, do not have the judgment to drive. Even the best, most talented and mature, 12-year-olds have to wait until they can drive.

How do you measure age in skydiving? Experience, generally.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ridestrong 1]

Quote

RS, seriously, if you are so concerned with making it acceptable, petition for a change to the SIM. Because the only people on here that are going to agree with you are the other new jumpers that want to strap a camera on their head before 200 jumps. All us "skygods" that keep holding you back do it because we want to keep the skies as safe as possible for our friends. Which include new jumpers that don't know any better.

I don't care about changing the SIM's recommended jump #s for wearing a camera, 200 is fine with me. But, I do feel that it would be reasonable (and probably even safer) to allow jumpers with a 'B' license to start wearing a camera IF they pass a 'video safety' course. Right now 200 is just a magic number and there is no 'required' knowledge needed to start jumping a camera.


Fact is, more and more jumpers are wearing cameras regardless of jump numbers and that is not going to change. I don't see any of you anti-camera people doing anything to make it any safer. My proposal would be requiring a 'video safety' course.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[monkycndo 0]

I have purchased 8 cameras for use in the air. Saying I'm an anti-camera nazi is way off base. I'm a fan of safety. I'm a believer in not having to rewrite the same rules that have already been written in blood.

B license, please.

Safety course, great idea. Again, want to change the rules, do something about it. Otherwise, the horse is dead, no need to keep beating it.

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