NO WIND JUMPS- keeps hurting me

[AggieDave 6]

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i'm aware of the 2-stage flare; can you elaborate on a 3-stage flare please?

how about flaring progressively while we're at it!? it aint rocket-surgery..

It is all variations on a theme to help teach a progressive flaring cadence that is needed for modern canopy designs. If you have ever jumped a clapped out Raider 220 you know that when it is time to land you just FLARE, but that same flare won't give you good results under a modern design.

If you want to get down to it, we could call it a 1000-stage flare.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ShotterMG 0]

In the real world low timers having trouble with their landings are often unaware how to level their canopy, bleed speed, and finish the flare fast and strong. I.e. The multiple stage flare. It should be taught to them immediately following AFF if not sooner. IMO. The OP's question is typical of such students. It's too bad the Internet instructor skygods on this site all failed to mention it. Instead, they prefer to chastise the student and demand he upsize. To the OP, learn the technique and your problem will be easily fixed.

[virgin-burner 1]

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i'm aware of the 2-stage flare; can you elaborate on a 3-stage flare please?

how about flaring progressively while we're at it!? it aint rocket-surgery..

It is all variations on a theme to help teach a progressive flaring cadence that is needed for modern canopy designs. If you have ever jumped a clapped out Raider 220 you know that when it is time to land you just FLARE, but that same flare won't give you good results under a modern design.

If you want to get down to it, we could call it a 1000-stage flare.

i jumped a clapped out sabre if that counts for something; not to speak of the navigators as a student!

i just like to take the piss out of people, i'm pretty sure u're aware of that too..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

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In the real world low timers having trouble with their landings are often unaware how to level their canopy, bleed speed, and finish the flare fast and strong. I.e. The multiple stage flare. It should be taught to them immediately following AFF if not sooner. IMO. The OP's question is typical of such students. It's too bad the Internet instructor skygods on this site all failed to mention it. Instead, they prefer to chastise the student and demand he upsize. To the OP, learn the technique and your problem will be easily fixed.

could you please name and shame the internet skygod instructors on this site!? just for entertainment purposes of course..



*sits back, grabs popcorn and enjoys the carnage that is to unfold*

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[rippedbx 0]

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I dont want to spend money on a new canopy that maybe I dont really need if I can manage to improve on this one.

Flying a 1.3 wingloading at 75 jumps makes for a steep learning curve. You might get a break and make it through unscathed.... or you might get broke.

New Pulse - less than $2000.

Broken ankle - $10k+

Badly broken leg - $30k+

Weeks off of work - $????

Bottles of pain meds - priceless!

Your choice.

???? are broken legs really that cheap??!!!!!!? wish i woulda broke my femur instead of my hip. lucky to walk out of the hospital with
I'm slowly learning that spending the money on doing things right is muuuuuch cheaper than doing things the "more fun" way

[virgin-burner 1]

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I dont want to spend money on a new canopy that maybe I dont really need if I can manage to improve on this one.

Flying a 1.3 wingloading at 75 jumps makes for a steep learning curve. You might get a break and make it through unscathed.... or you might get broke.

New Pulse - less than $2000.

Broken ankle - $10k+

Badly broken leg - $30k+

Weeks off of work - $????

Bottles of pain meds - priceless!

Your choice.

???? are broken legs really that cheap??!!!!!!? wish i woulda broke my femur instead of my hip. lucky to walk out of the hospital with
I'm slowly learning that spending the money on doing things right is muuuuuch cheaper than doing things the "more fun" way

but-but.. where's the fun in THAT!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[skybytch 259]

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are broken legs really that cheap??!!!!!!?

I estimated low. Cost will depend on how badly you break it. I broke tib/fib playing hockey - no surgery required since the shin guard kept them straight. I'm already pushing $6k and the cast hasn't even come off yet. That's with no insurance and care from a non-profit community clinic - it'd be way more if I was having to pay specialist prices for seeing the ortho.

Most skydiving tib/fib breaks require surgery.

[ShotterMG 0]

Don't worry junior, I am not going to attack your heroes anymore. You don't respect my opinion, that's cool. I am sure you know more than me. My opinion only comes from my current experience working with students. Therre are those who write thousands of words a day on the Internet who apparently form quite different opinions. So I give mine just to provide balance from those who actually skydive and teach in real life. But I guess my advice sucks. Feel free to better inform me. Thanks in advance for your help.

[AggieDave 6]

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Don't worry junior, I am not going to attack your heroes anymore. You don't respect my opinion, that's cool. I am sure you know more than me. My opinion only comes from my current experience working with students. Therre are those who write thousands of words a day on the Internet who apparently form quite different opinions. So I give mine just to provide balance from those who actually skydive and teach in real life. But I guess my advice sucks. Feel free to better inform me. Thanks in advance for your help.

You know that there are a lot of different people on DZ.com, including active jumpers who are current instructors and competitors. Those people might even have a different opinions from yours. It is the nature of skydiving and of people in general.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkyPiggie 0]

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1) Flare all the way. Never land without your hands being all the way down.

"Never"? Oh my, Skypiggie thinks that "never" is a mighty big word.

What about during higher winds when only a partial flare is needed to bring your descent rate to zero? And in fact, if you flare all the way in high winds, just like you do in light winds, then you're likely to get pulled backwards while still airborne and have a really nasty landing that could hurt you.

Aren't there exceptions to everything, including "never"?

[virgin-burner 1]

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Don't worry junior, I am not going to attack your heroes anymore. You don't respect my opinion, that's cool. I am sure you know more than me. My opinion only comes from my current experience working with students. Therre are those who write thousands of words a day on the Internet who apparently form quite different opinions. So I give mine just to provide balance from those who actually skydive and teach in real life. But I guess my advice sucks. Feel free to better inform me. Thanks in advance for your help.

mate, i respect your opinon, and yes, i'm a junior as you mentioned.

ask ANYONE on here, and they will all tell you the same thing: by american standards, i'm not a posterboy for safety at all.

also, i dont get my advice from here, i initially only participated on dorkzone to get more OPINIONS. oh, and i like to stir the shit, ever since..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[diablopilot 2]

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In the real world low timers having trouble with their landings are often unaware how to level their canopy, bleed speed, and finish the flare fast and strong. I.e. The multiple stage flare. It should be taught to them immediately following AFF if not sooner. IMO. The OP's question is typical of such students. It's too bad the Internet instructor skygods on this site all failed to mention it. Instead, they prefer to chastise the student and demand he upsize. To the OP, learn the technique and your problem will be easily fixed.

What is with everyone advising canopy skills to be taught AFTER AFF these days. Learning how to safely fly and land a parachute is something that should be learned and taught DURING AFF starting with jump 1. If you're not doing it from jump 1 you're wasting their time, money and jeopardizing their safety.

As for the internet skygods, a 1.3 or possibly higher loading at 75 jumps over 2 years is not a safe thing for anyone. If you would advise him to continue you are also wasting his time money and jeopardizing his safety.

As for those "skygods" and their experience, I did more than 1000 jumps last year. I do AFF, and have for 8 years. I'm pretty good at it. I think my advice has merit.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bqmassey 0]

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What about during higher winds when only a partial flare is needed to bring your descent rate to zero? And in fact, if you flare all the way in high winds, just like you do in light winds, then you're likely to get pulled backwards while still airborne and have a really nasty landing that could hurt you.

Please tell me you don't have a D license AND believe that wind speed affects descent rate.

[pchapman 261]

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It's too bad the Internet instructor skygods on this site all failed to mention it. Instead, they prefer to chastise the student and demand he upsize.

Why hasn't it been mentioned? Because we're not going to sit here and write down everything we know about canopy control.

Of course you need to learn how to flare right, and learning to flare properly will help his landings.

But the OP has somehow gotten to where he is with very little knowledge about canopy flight. How that happened, we don't know. Whatever good knowledge there might be on his DZ, doesn't seem to have been taught to him.

There are bigger issues here than just fine tuning the flare.

And you don't downsize first, and then learn to flare.

[ShotterMG 0]

You wrote: I'm pretty good at it. I think my advice has merit.

We Know. Believe me, we know. :)

[SkyPiggie 0]

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What about during higher winds when only a partial flare is needed to bring your descent rate to zero? And in fact, if you flare all the way in high winds, just like you do in light winds, then you're likely to get pulled backwards while still airborne and have a really nasty landing that could hurt you.

Please tell me you don't have a D license AND believe that wind speed affects descent rate.

Please tell little Skypiggie that you're not a student, as it says in your profile, AND believe that wind speed doesn't affect canopy over-the-ground speed for landing.

Feel free to do a full, vigorous flare in 20 mph winds. And when you've bled your forward air speed off to zero, you'll find yourself going backwards over the ground at 20 mph...

[faulknerwn 36]

Actually upsizing may not be that expensive - most dropzones have tons of people looking to downsize - you just need to find some of those people and look into trading your gear for their gear.. You are definitely on way too small of a canopy - but there is a good chance there is someone near you who wants to and is qualified to jump your canopy, and you theirs..

[davelepka 4]

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I give mine just to provide balance from those who actually skydive and teach in real life. But I guess my advice sucks.

Yeah, it does suck. Did you even read the title of the thread? The guy starts off saying that the landings 'hurt'. if you read further it turns out that he's got 75 jumps, a 1.3 WL (after putting on 30 lbs since buying the canopy) and that his problems are with no-wind landings. He's the poster child for in-over-his-head. He can land the canopy OK in specific circumstances, but not all. It's only a matter of time before the known circumstances in which he cannot land, no wind, and an unknown circumstance, such as an off landing, come together on the same jump. What then?

That's when 'hurting' goes from creating temporary pain to creating real injury.

For the record, we teach every student the 3 part flare from jump one at my DZ. I am fully aware of the technique and it's value to all jumpers. However, just getting the guy to finish his flare is not going to change his situation. His WL is too high for his experience on both his main and reserve.

As for you jackass, you continue to 'contribute' with your contrarian viewpoints, but still lack the sack to man up and indentify yourself. No name, no location, no proof you're not a 13 year-old kid playnig skydiver in between jerk-off sessions on the internet.

How about it? Stand behind your ideas and indentify yourself. Share some details about who you are, where you jump, and what you've done, unless of course all you've 'done' is your hand and a box of tissues.

[ravel 0]

OK GUYs just needed some advise no need to make big deal out of it. Everyone got the point across and I will be getting something bigger
Thanks all

[diablopilot 2]

Good job, and good luck with the search.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[millertime24 8]

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OK GUYs just needed some advise no need to make big deal out of it. Everyone got the point across and I will be getting something bigger
Thanks all

Don't fret too much about it. This is DZ.com after all.

What I would like to do is share an experience I had today. I normally fly a Pilot 111 at a w/l'ing of 1.7. I also jump at a dz that is 4500' above sea level.

Today it was rather hot (high 80's I believe). This makes the air less dense. There was also no wind today. I remember when I bought my canopy from my DZO he reminded me how much faster it would be in these conditions. Long story short I ended up biffing a landing (due to tripping on some weeds). The FIRST thing I did was put my gear in a cubby. The second thing I did was drove home and grab my 135. I hooked up my 135 and the rest of my landings (while fast) were easier to deal with.

I'm not telling you to up-size. I'm not an instructor. I will tell you that when I went with my bigger canopy today to enhance my safety for the conditions I was told "you're being smart Miller". I'm just saying use the right tool for the job. I know in my case it's a bit easier since I have 2 mains at my disposal, but theres nothing saying you cant do the same thing.

>>Caveat<< Now I'm sure "Ill" get blasted for jumping shit I have no business.

Muff #5048

[ShotterMG 0]

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I give mine just to provide balance from those who actually skydive and teach in real life. But I guess my advice sucks.

Yeah, it does suck. Did you even read the title of the thread? The guy starts off saying that the landings 'hurt'. if you read further it turns out that he's got 75 jumps, a 1.3 WL (after putting on 30 lbs since buying the canopy) and that his problems are with no-wind landings. He's the poster child for in-over-his-head. He can land the canopy OK in specific circumstances, but not all. It's only a matter of time before the known circumstances in which he cannot land, no wind, and an unknown circumstance, such as an off landing, come together on the same jump. What then?

That's when 'hurting' goes from creating temporary pain to creating real injury.

For the record, we teach every student the 3 part flare from jump one at my DZ. I am fully aware of the technique and it's value to all jumpers. However, just getting the guy to finish his flare is not going to change his situation. His WL is too high for his experience on both his main and reserve.

As for you jackass, you continue to 'contribute' with your contrarian viewpoints, but still lack the sack to man up and indentify yourself. No name, no location, no proof you're not a 13 year-old kid playnig skydiver in between jerk-off sessions on the internet.

How about it? Stand behind your ideas and indentify yourself. Share some details about who you are, where you jump, and what you've done, unless of course all you've 'done' is your hand and a box of tissues.

Wow! I really upset you huh Davey boy? Are you ok? That must have been some really reckless advice I gave the OP. What was it? Oh yeah, " talk to you instructors about a 3 stage flare". Yikes! From this Diablo Dick figured out I don't teach students any canopy control.... And you figured out I must be a chronic masturbator! Wow. I take back everything I said. You guys are really smart! :)

[airtwardo 6]

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I give mine just to provide balance from those who actually skydive and teach in real life. But I guess my advice sucks.

Yeah, it does suck. Did you even read the title of the thread? The guy starts off saying that the landings 'hurt'. if you read further it turns out that he's got 75 jumps, a 1.3 WL (after putting on 30 lbs since buying the canopy) and that his problems are with no-wind landings. He's the poster child for in-over-his-head. He can land the canopy OK in specific circumstances, but not all. It's only a matter of time before the known circumstances in which he cannot land, no wind, and an unknown circumstance, such as an off landing, come together on the same jump. What then?

That's when 'hurting' goes from creating temporary pain to creating real injury.

For the record, we teach every student the 3 part flare from jump one at my DZ. I am fully aware of the technique and it's value to all jumpers. However, just getting the guy to finish his flare is not going to change his situation. His WL is too high for his experience on both his main and reserve.

As for you jackass, you continue to 'contribute' with your contrarian viewpoints, but still lack the sack to man up and indentify yourself. No name, no location, no proof you're not a 13 year-old kid playnig skydiver in between jerk-off sessions on the internet.

How about it? Stand behind your ideas and indentify yourself. Share some details about who you are, where you jump, and what you've done, unless of course all you've 'done' is your hand and a box of tissues.

Wow! I really upset you huh Davey boy? Are you ok? That must have been some really reckless advice I gave the OP. What was it? Oh yeah, " talk to you instructors about a 3 stage flare". Yikes! From this Diablo Dick figured out I don't teach students any canopy control.... And you figured out I must be a chronic masturbator! Wow. I take back everything I said. You guys are really smart! :)

Ask advise on the innerweb and ya gets what ya pay for...




I wuz just gonna tell him to only jump in high wind!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bqmassey 0]

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Please tell me you don't have a D license AND believe that wind speed affects descent rate.

Please tell little Skypiggie that you're not a student, as it says in your profile, AND believe that wind speed doesn't affect canopy over-the-ground speed for landing.

Feel free to do a full, vigorous flare in 20 mph winds. And when you've bled your forward air speed off to zero, you'll find yourself going backwards over the ground at 20 mph...

Wind speed most definitely has an effect on ground speed. I take no issue with that claim, because it's true.

You stated:

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What about during higher winds when only a partial flare is needed to bring your descent rate to zero?

If a "partial flare" brings you to zero descent rate in a high wind speed, it will do the exact same in a no-wind situation. Wind speed does NOT have an effect on descent rate, unless you're talking about wind that moves with a vertical component (such as ridge lift).

I hope that I've misinterpreted what you're saying.

[popsjumper 2]

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Feel free to do a full, vigorous flare in 20 mph winds. And when you've bled your forward air speed off to zero, you'll find yourself going backwards over the ground at 20 mph...

Ummm...you might want to re-think that.
My canopy doesn't know that. Can you tell me how to teach my canopy that trick?

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What about during higher winds when only a partial flare is needed to bring your descent rate to zero?

Ummm...that, too.
I wish to hell I could bring my descent rate to zero....I'd stay under canopy forever!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239