Interesting Dilemma this weekend

[JohnRich 4]

No shit, there we were in a five-way skydive, when we entered a cloud at 4,500', but didn't think we were going to die, yet. Our planned breakoff altititude was 4,000'.

One of the unwritten rules for a group jump that enters a cloud is for everyone to stay together so that you can keep track of everyone else, and no one gets lost in the fog. That way you don't have people wandering around in unknown places to cause problems and danger.

So there we were in the cloud. We passed through the breakoff altitude, and no one quite wanted to leave yet in the blind. The thoughts went like this: Where the heck is the bottom of this cloud? If we break now, we won't be able to see each other to know if we're clear to pull or not. If we wait too long to pop out the bottom, we might be too low to have sufficient tracking time. What to do? Crap!

At 3,500', after about 6 seconds in the cloud, 3 seconds past our planned breakoff altitude, not knowing where the bottom was, everyone decided simultaneously that this was low enough, and breakoff proceeded. It only took about one second after turning to track before the other divers vanished in the fog. But I had a good diverging path with the jumpers on either side of me from the brief second that I could see them, so I just proceeded in a straight line. But how do you really know what a straight line is with no reference points? Ack! Maybe one of the other guys wandered my way after they disappeared...

It all worked out just fine, with plenty of separation, and breaking out of the bottom of the cloud just before pull time. All trusted jumpers who knew what they were doing.

Yeah, I know, you're going to criticize us for spotting over a cloud. It wasn't our spot. Yeah, I know, you've going to criticize us for not knowing where the bottom of the clouds were, but they were variable somewhat on the bottoms, and especially in the tops. It was a day of random puffies of varying size and hieght. So this really isn't about spotting to avoid clouds, or making a mental note of the cloud altitudes while climbing. We do all that, but sometimes clouds happen anyway.

This message is about the dilemma of the best way to handle such a situation, once you're in it. I just found my thought processes interesting while it was happening, weighing the pros and cons of various possibilities.

[wildcard451 0]

How dare you not know what the spot is once you got out and damn you to hell for jumping in clouds and how dare you actually have the capacity to think through a situation and ....


nah, you are ok. Good job. Thought processes in hindsight are usually funny things.

[frontloop33 1]

Well, usually you see the cloud from above. Why not break up at 5,000' or 5,500'
Not being over a cloud would have been the wiser choice anyway.

[piisfish 135]

next time you jump in clouds, get round parachutes and waterfall the openings

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[JohnRich 4]

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Well, usually you see the cloud from above. Why not break up at 5,000' or 5,500'
Not being over a cloud would have been the wiser choice anyway.

Because you're not spending time looking down in an RW skydive, and because if you do that, then a long track might take you into other groups that exited before or after you.

[Southern_Man 0]

at what point did you end up coming out of the clouds?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[davelepka 4]

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This message is about the dilemma of the best way to handle such a situation, once you're in it.

Suck it up cupcake. Or, more specifically, suck it down in that case.

You correctly identifed the the problems of the situation, that being spatial disorientation in the clouds inhibiting straight tracking. You cannot ensure a safe break off in that circumstance.

One alternative mentioned, break off above the cloud, all that leads to is spatial disorientation under canopy when everyone tracks off an opens in the cloud.

The bad answer is that there is no good solution to the problem. Parachutes and parachutists are not equipped for operation with zero visibility, and this is why we're not supposed to jump through clouds.

It goes without saying that prevention is the best plan, but if you end up where you end up, I think you did the best thing you could have. Suck it down a little lower and see if you come out of the bottom, and if a few extra seconds doesn't put you in the clear, proceed with break off and hope for the best.

You might add in a few extra seconds after break off to see of you can track out of the bottom, so you can open and fly your canopy in the clear. You don't want to track further than normal to avoid conflicts with other groups, but you might just hum it straight down at the end of the track to see where the bottoms are.

DISCLAIMER - All this talk about taking things lower then planed is dependent on having a conservative plan at the outset that allows for 'wiggle room' and it's applicability will differ from jumper to jumper depending on their skill and experience, as well as the skill and experience of all jumpers in your group. Prevention, that is not jumping over clouds remains the best course of action.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

This has happened before and I was caught in 30 seconds of solid, rainy, cold, thick cloud (Video's on youtube, including the water pouring over my camera lens). It was a 5 way sit fly that went to shit pretty quickly and was incredibly dangerous. It was honestly one of my all time scariest jumps. (Watch from 0:53.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu6yAzeq6BM

I stuck with the plan, because as far as I could see when we went through a thinner part of cloud, everyone was still in their sit below me. We broke off and thankfully I got a glimpse of them before breakoff to give me a tracking direction. Everyone chose an appropriate direction and was ok. If you watch closely, you can see a couple of times where the rest of the group is, and when I turn to track, there's someone just off to my right.

The lesson I learnt from this was monumental: I ALWAYS, check the cloud cover, but more importantly, where the base and tops of the clouds are. Often times there are layers and I know we'll pop through, or if I know we got over a massive cloud I know where we'll pop out or if we should break off above and stagger our openings etc. Essentially, just plan for it.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[JohnRich 4]

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at what point did you end up coming out of the clouds?

Quote: "breaking out of the bottom of the cloud just before pull time"

That would be about 2,500'-3,000'.

[WatchYourStep 0]

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It wasn't our spot.

What does that mean?

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[Rick 67]

I think you did the best you could with the situation like Dave said "Suck it down a little lower and see if you come out of the bottom, and if a few extra seconds doesn't put you in the clear, proceed with break off and hope for the best.".

I have been in the same situation. I think it was a 5 or 6 way. All the jumpers were experienced and heads up. One thing when we did break off everyone turned slowly from center keeping an eye on all the other jumpers and getting the best line from center as possible to increase seperation.I did take it down lower than I normally do (not in the basement just closer to 2500 than 3000).

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[quade 3]

I never saw the act of punching a cloud as being the thing that would actually kill me. Sure, there's the one in a billion chance of hitting an IRF airplane you never saw, but honestly, the odds are so astronomically low I don't think it's really worth worrying about, at least as long as you're IN the cloud. The odds do go up a bit 500 feet below the cloud, but not significantly higher than normal.

I also never felt particularly unsafe in punching a cloud and ending up in Timbuktu, at least not on my home DZ. For the most part, if there's any visual contact with a known landmark at all, I can do the mental gymnastics to figure out approximately where I am. A drop zone where I'm just a visitor . . . that's something altogether different. I want a LOT more visual contact before exit, but will admit to punching a total undercast at an away Nationals once during practice because, well, that's just the level of commitment you have sometimes.

I ALWAYS felt the most important thing about punching a cloud was knowing what the base of it was. The higher the base, the better I felt about it. MOST aircraft have windows and most of us have altimeters so there's almost no excuse for not knowing. They aren't going to change much from the time you go through them on climb to the time you go through them again in freefall. If the weather is changing that fast, then you might have bigger problems to worry about. Bases above 4,000 I didn't see as being all that bad, but bases below break off are, in my opinion, really pushing it.

Let's make no bones about it. Punching clouds is illegal no matter how you look at it. The reality is that it's going to occasionally happen and altitude is your friend.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Southern_Man 0]

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at what point did you end up coming out of the clouds?

Quote: "breaking out of the bottom of the cloud just before pull time"

That would be about 2,500'-3,000'.

Thanks, I missed that, even tried to read it twice, guess it is just Monday.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[JohnRich 4]

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I never saw the act of punching a cloud as being the thing that would actually kill me...

Right. But hitting an unseen open canopy will, or a freefall collision with another jumper might.

And perhaps you missed the intended tongue in cheek nature of the way I began my post with the "no shit, there I was..." clause. Yes, that was intentionally overblown relative to the seriousness of the actual event.

[quade 3]

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I never saw the act of punching a cloud as being the thing that would actually kill me...

Right. But hitting an unseen open canopy will, or a freefall collision with another jumper might.

Right. And this is also less likely to happen if you limit doing it to when the bases are high. Very few people will punch a cloud and have their first thought be to deploy, so you're not likely to have a collision with an open canopy until you get down to deployment altitudes. Those should also be infrequent because the last load probably didn't drop in the same place you did. I'm not saying there's a guarantee or anything, but most people worry about the wrong things. By limiting your cloud punching to higher bases, you eliminate a lot of the freefall collision crap and that's a pretty much doable situation too.

That's really all I was saying.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[theonlyski 3]

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MOST aircraft have windows and most of us have altimeters so there's almost no excuse for not knowing. They aren't going to change much from the time you go through them on climb to the time you go through them again in freefall.

I try to make it a point to let others know what the cloud base is at... they might have been dicking with their cameras or shooting the shit and didn't notice it.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[champu 1]

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No shit, there we were in a five-way skydive, when we entered a cloud at 4,500', but didn't think we were going to die, yet. Our planned breakoff altititude was 4,000'.

If your whole group is right there in visual range at your break off altitude I would say break off as planned.

If you really are only a couple seconds above the cloud base, you're still going to be able to locate the people nearest you pretty easily once you come out the bottom, so waiting around an extra second or two doesn't help you.

If the cloud base turns out to be at or near pull altitude it's better to deal with maybe one other person than definitely four other people being near you. I would probably delay my pull a couple seconds after I exited the cloud and wave off a little more deliberately while looking around to assist in any last minute evasive actions.

If the cloud base is below your pull altitude or your group is scattered out of visual range at your break off altitude then good luck!

[AggieDave 6]

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Sure, there's the one in a billion chance of hitting an IRF airplane you never saw, but honestly, the odds are so astronomically low I don't think it's really worth worrying about

I had to brake and turn to miss a VFR Bonanza under canopy last year.

At the Canopy Piloting Nationals.

On a competition run.

1/2 through my downwind leg at 2000ft.

Much like *insert any politician*'s numbers, I think yours are off.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[quade 3]

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Sure, there's the one in a billion chance of hitting an IRF airplane you never saw, but honestly, the odds are so astronomically low I don't think it's really worth worrying about

I had to brake and turn to miss a VFR Bonanza under canopy last year.
At the Canopy Piloting Nationals.
On a competition run.
1/2 through my downwind leg at 2000ft.
Much like *insert any politician*'s numbers, I think yours are off.

I choose my words fairly carefully when it comes to things like this. Notice precisely what I said.

VFR pilots are by and large going to be away from clouds. Most understand that without proper training, their lifespans can be cut short incredibly quickly by flying into one.

So, what does that leave us with inside the clouds? IFR aircraft.

The thing is, most, not all, but the vast majority of IFR traffic isn't going to be over a DZ for a lot of reasons. They're also going to be in contact with ATC. Not that ATC has any responsibility to separate IFR traffic from VFR traffic (the jump plane and jumpers), but the majority are also going to have some sort of contact with the jump plane at least in the form of some radar tag on their screen. ATC has this thing about not wanting overlapping targets even with vertical separation. My main point being, the odds actually go down when it comes to jump vs aircraft collisions in a cloud.

Outside, that's another story and I mentioned that picks up again 500 feet below the cloud.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

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VFR pilots are by and large going to be away from clouds. Most understand that without proper training, their lifespans can be cut short incredibly quickly by flying into one.

So, what does that leave us with inside the clouds? IFR aircraft.

IFR pilots *should* be away from a DZ. I've seen more than a few IFR approaches blow right over a DZ. Then there is a VFR pilot doing IFR flight following to get past a layer...

There is a lot of *should* that we shouldn't count our lives on.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[nigel99 150]

My only experience of cloud was a 3 way. The formation fell apart above the cloud, we all looked at each tracked away and then held position once we were in the cloud. It worked but it scared me. We knew entering the cloud that we had good separation.

If it ever happens to me again, I am riding the plane down or making alternative plans like switching to a hop and pop under the clouds. Spending 20-30 seconds falling through white stuff with zero visibility seems to be tempting fate.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JohnRich 4]

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Very few people will punch a cloud and have their first thought be to deploy, so you're not likely to have a collision with an open canopy until you get down to deployment altitudes.

Ah, but therein lies a problem. Some people, mostly newbies, can get the spur of the moment idea that the best thing to do is to deploy to slow down what's going on, for whatever reason. I've seen it happen. Just like newbies who get the idea that when they go low on a formation, they might as well deploy high because they're out of the game. Sometimes people do irrational things when something unusual takes place. All it takes is one of those to kill a couple of people.

[JohnRich 4]

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I try to make it a point to let others know what the cloud base is at... they might have been dicking with their cameras or shooting the shit and didn't notice it.

And that changes as the day progresses. In the places I've jumped, the clouds start out low, and as the ground warms up, they slowly rise throughout the day. So if the base is at, say, 2000' at 9:00 am, by the time you make your next jump at 10:30 they will likely be 500' higher. So this is something you have to make a point to make a mental note of on every load, as your plane climbs to alititude. It's easy to forget. And sometimes you're in aircraft which don't really make it easy, like sitting on the floor of a Skyvan, tailgate closed, with porthole windows that are way above eye level.

They can be helpful too, sometimes. When I do head down speed dives, I like to note the cloud altitude and use that to judge when I should flare out of my dive and get ready to pull. That's because altering my head position to look at my altimeter messes up my streamlining. If the cloud tops are at four grand, I just dive until I'm even with the cloud tops, and that's when I know to end my dive.

[jurgencamps 0]

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And that changes as the day progresses. In the places I've jumped, the clouds start out low, and as the ground warms up, they slowly rise throughout the day. ...
I just dive until I'm even with the cloud tops, and that's when I know to end my dive.

The contrary can happen to. During climbing, the cloud base is at 4500 ft, but 10 min later, the cloud base got lower.

Gr
Jurgen

[quade 3]

That would be a pretty significant and fast moving front. I would think that would have been hard to miss.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver