1st Jump, Minor Malfunction

[nigel99 144]

Quote

youngster/oldster

You know I am going to have to stop jumping, so that you keep calling me a youngster. It feels good, like being asked for ID when ordering a drink.

Makes a change from the fact that most of the jumpers are 3 or 4 years older than my daughter.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[crotalus01 0]

Just to give you a perspective on WHY you should have chopped that canopy - First jump so I am assuming it was a 230ish or larger canopy you were flying, a nice big docile student canopy. If I had tried to land that same malfunction on my Safire 189 loaded at 1.3 I am almost certain it would have been AT LEAST a broken leg, probably a badly broken one. On a higher loaded or smaller wing that same malfunction could result in a trip to the morgue. Never be afraid to use your reserve! That's why you have one.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[skybytch 259]

Quote

By 2500 ft, I had figured out it was controllable - and it certainly was. What student on his first jump is gonna know something like this is safe or not?

Every student I've ever taught knew that a turn that requires more than shoulder level toggle input to make the canopy fly straight is NOT controllable. A turn requiring 1/2 to 3/4 toggle input on one side is not going to flare real well, even for someone with a lot more than one jump under their belt (which is the reason behind the no more than shoulder level toggle input thing).

Quote

nor anything that lead me to believe I could not land it. I answered my all important question to the affirmative: Yes, I CAN control it.

Did you do a control check before deciding you could control it and safely land it? Doesn't a control check involve flaring the canopy? Had you done a control check prior to your hard deck, you would have known that it was going to turn you into the ground if you tried to land it.

[LDiCosimo 0]

What doesn't make sense? I said if you have to compensate past shoulder level that is too much. Something every instructor I know has said, not something I just came up with out of thin air.

I never told anyone how to run a FJC Just reiterated what the instructors that taught me and that i've watched teach others used to reinforce knowledge and ensure for themselves that their student is ready to jump.

That's all
LD Out

[ghost47 18]

Quote

OK, folks, I (reluctantly) agree. No one likes to admit they f*cked up. Here I am admitting it:

ACKNOWLEDGED!

I didn't handle this one appropriately. Important lesson learned. Good advice from your past experiences will be taken into consideration in my next (and all subsequent/future) jumps.

Bravo. To me, this is a very important lesson, perhaps even as important as knowing when to cut away.

You're right, no one likes to admit that they fucked up, and skydivers have egos just like everyone else. But the ability to admit that what you did was not ideal, to learn from that and change your ways, to accept the information given by more knowledgeable jumpers -- that will serve you very well in your new sport.

[labrys 0]

Quote

What doesn't make sense? I said if you have to compensate past shoulder level that is too much. Something every instructor I know has said, not something I just came up with out of thin air.

There's nothing anywhere in any USPA recommendation I've ever seen that mentions training a student to do anything other than cutaway a main that won't fly in a straight line with both toggles released and the canopy in full flight.

I think that's what Pops is saying and I totally agree. If you didn't come up with the "shoulder level" rule out of thin air, then one of the (how many is it, hundreds or possible just 1 or 2?) instructors you know has come up with out of thin air in that sense. It's bad advice for a new jumper. It introduces too much grey area into the decision process at that stage of training.

Owned by Remi #?

[nigel99 144]

Quote

Quote

What doesn't make sense? I said if you have to compensate past shoulder level that is too much. Something every instructor I know has said, not something I just came up with out of thin air.

There's nothing anywhere in any USPA recommendation I've ever seen that mentions training a student to do anything other than cutaway a main that won't fly in a straight line with both toggles released and the canopy in full flight.

I think that's what Pops is saying and I totally agree. If you didn't come up with the "shoulder level" rule out of thin air, then one of the (how many is it, hundreds or possible just 1 or 2?) instructors you know has come up with out of thin air in that sense. It's bad advice for a new jumper. It introduces too much grey area into the decision process at that stage of training.

See Skybytch's post. I had never heard of that rule, but clearly she has. While I understand the logic of it, I would like to hear more of her thoughts and other instructors who condone the rule. Have any instructors had students successfully land in this manner, and how did the cope?

My biggest concern, is that it would make flaring more complicated. I can imagine a flare ending up being a braked turn into the ground. I am still trying to perfect not popping up on landing

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JerseyShawn 0]

Sgt.Sausauge, props for making it so you can "chop" the next crappy looking canopy!

I understand there's a lot to remember about your jumps, can be overwhelming. You have choices to make, your own choices that only you can make, life saving choices. Whether you're up high making choices, you first make a choice on the ground. If somehing doesn't make total sense to you on the ground (gear check, dive flow, canopy check, landing pattern), when your instructor asks are you ready to jump, you can
say NO if you don't feel like you fully understand the knowledge taught to you. Again, I understand there's a lot to retain and you did your best what you thought was right.

But I think a "no, not ready to jump, let's go over this again" would of been a good call to understand your canopy control check and EPs (emergency procedures) a bit better. I've said no once because I couldn't get the dive flow down in my head, went over and over it until we both felt I was ready.

My instructors made me go over the whole jump (dive flow), canopy control check and EPs before they felt I was good to go every jump. They made me repeat it all the way up until the door opened, then asked if I was ready to jump again (you can still say no at that point too).

Good luck with your training! It gets fun!

[jrjny 0]

It would take a lot of balls to chop your first solo jump. I don't know if I would have in your situation, either.

Next time you know what to do, glad you're safe have fun jumping. Keep a checklist of steps after deployment and go on rules based thinking.

[labrys 0]

Quote

See Skybytch's post. I had never heard of that rule, but clearly she has.

Ah, Okay. I hadn't read that post but I understand your questions.

Owned by Remi #?

[Sgt.Sausage 0]

==> Have any instructors had students successfully land in this manner, and how did the cope?

OP here.

Define "successfully". I walked away. A little sore from a harder-than-it-should-have-been landing. Is that success?

Mine was quite a bit more than shoulder-level. Most of the ride it was about half way between shoulder and waist. Sometimes as low as the waistline. Never at shoulder or above.

But ...

==> My biggest concern, is that it would make flaring more complicated.

As far as I can tell flairing was impossible. Sure, you pull 'em both down, but it certainly didn't react in anything like a flair. Mine did nothing but exactly what you thought:

==> I can imagine a flare ending up being a braked turn into the ground.

That's about exactly how I would describe it. Left turn, drop and plop hard. I had no sensation of braking or slowing down. Just a left turn straight into the ground. Boom. Ouch.

**

Again admitting my complete c*ck-up of this, my first jump ... but you asked what it was like. Sorry, I'm just a student and don't have the instructor's perspective you asked for, but it is what it is.

[nigel99 144]

Quote

==> Have any instructors had students successfully land in this manner, and how did the cope?

OP here.

Define "successfully". I walked away. A little sore from a harder-than-it-should-have-been landing. Is that success?

I think that successfully probably means a situation where the instructor felt that the actions taken were appropriate. You can say that walking away from any skydive unhurt is success. I would expect a controlled flare to be success.

The reason I asked for instructors viewpoints is that whenever I notice instructors have a difference of opinion, I like to try and get some background. Not everything is black and white and it helps to understand how they reached their preferred option.

You've probably got more experience landing a crippled canopy than many of us, now you just need to go out and get experience landing working parachutes.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Hey Sgt., minor malfunction, minor mistake on your part.

There are no “minor malfunctions”. Unlike a round canopy a ram air with a problem will never get better, it will only get worse. From your posts it sounds like you were taught how to check for a good canopy and you disregarded at least one item. As a rigger with 30 years of jumping, 20+ years testing I long ago came up with a hard fast rule. I deploy, look up and make a quick decision if I can land it. If not it is gone. I won’t waste altitude trying to rig in the air.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DarrellM5 0]

Congratulations on your first jump. I'm glad it all turned out alright in the end and that you learned a valuable lesson that could save your life next time.

I also appreciate you posting it so we can all either learn from it or have it reinforced in our minds.

I'm currently in my AFF is Mesquite, NV and my instructor had definitely been drilling the "cutaway if you can't fly straight with a toggle no lower than shoulder height" thing into our heads.

I hope the rest of your AFF goes really smooth.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

Quote

What doesn't make sense? I said if you have to compensate past shoulder level that is too much. Something every instructor I know has said, not something I just came up with out of thin air.

There's nothing anywhere in any USPA recommendation I've ever seen that mentions training a student to do anything other than cutaway a main that won't fly in a straight line with both toggles released and the canopy in full flight.

I think that's what Pops is saying and I totally agree. If you didn't come up with the "shoulder level" rule out of thin air, then one of the (how many is it, hundreds or possible just 1 or 2?) instructors you know has come up with out of thin air in that sense. It's bad advice for a new jumper. It introduces too much grey area into the decision process at that stage of training.

My opinion is that some guideline such as shoulder level or whatever is reasonable because canopies can have a slight turn. Either you have some guideline about what is too much of a slight turn, or you need some guideline about what it OK to keep it flying straight. Without either of these, one might have students cutting away when it is obviously not needed. Just my opinion as a non-instructor

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[nigel99 144]

Quote

My opinion is that some guideline such as shoulder level or whatever is reasonable because canopies can have a slight turn. Either you have some guideline about what is too much of a slight turn, or you need some guideline about what it OK to keep it flying straight. Without either of these, one might have students cutting away when it is obviously not needed. Just my opinion as a non-instructor

I hadn't thought about canopies with built in turns, I guess un-even legstraps could cause a turn.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

I hadn't thought about canopies with built in turns, I guess un-even legstraps could cause a turn.

A very common cause is the canopy being slightly out of trim. As an instructor, you have to teach the students that it's normal to have to actively steer the canopy, that if left alone they will often drift in a turn.

[nigel99 144]

Quote

Quote

I hadn't thought about canopies with built in turns, I guess un-even legstraps could cause a turn.

A very common cause is the canopy being slightly out of trim. As an instructor, you have to teach the students that it's normal to have to actively steer the canopy, that if left alone they will often drift in a turn.

So do you teach the shoulder rule that has been mentioned? Or do you have a different guideline?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

My opinion is that some guideline such as shoulder level or whatever is reasonable because canopies can have a slight turn.

If I come across a student that tells me, or if I notice it while he's under canopy, that it has a slight turn, that canopy is coming out of service until it's fixed.

Quote

Either you have some guideline about what is too much of a slight turn, or you need some guideline about what it OK to keep it flying straight.

The guideline is can you flare it with both toggles even and does it flare on level....NO? Cutaway and deploy the reserve.
It part of the canopy control check.

So, maybe it's a good idea the tell students, "if you have to pull a toggle more than X length to make it fly straight, then cutaway and deploy your reserve"? Do you need to specify that the bottom of your hand reaches shoulder or the top of the hand or what? And then try to teach them how to flare a canopy that requires it?
Not a good idea in my book.

Hmmmmm....now, what to tell them when they have a stuck toggle and they have to stop the turn using 1/4 to 1/2 brakes on one side. Hmmmmmm.....Do you tell them to automatically cut away a stuck toggle? Some are taught that, some are not.
I don't. I tell them to check altitude, stop the turn, fix the problem or, cutaway and deploy the reserve by Decision Altitude of 2500 feet.

Hmmmmmm...now what do you tell them when they have to crab? You have to pull one toggle more than the recommended X length to fly a line so now what?

Quote

Without either of these, one might have students cutting away when it is obviously not needed. Just my opinion as a non-instructor

True enough. A bigger worry is that students cut away good canopies for any number of reasons...box of chocolates, right?

I tend to be more careful about just how many "what ifs" you give a student. The more decisions, the more chance for screw up. Hence, the one argument for the Kiss Principle. I don't subscribe to that principle, but it's a point made in support of it.

Be careful in understanding the difference between student comprehension and experienced jumper comprehension. Two entirely different animals.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

There's nothing anywhere in any USPA recommendation I've ever seen that mentions training a student to do anything other than cutaway a main that won't fly in a straight line with both toggles released and the canopy in full flight.

I think that's what Pops is saying and I totally agree.

Exactly....with the added caveat that it flares evenly during your control check.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

So do you teach the shoulder rule that has been mentioned? Or do you have a different guideline?

Not really, but I might start using that.

[gabrigger 0]

I don't usually post, but felt the need to reply to this thread. I saw your descent from your first jump and am also the Instructor who taught the AFF portion of your first jump course. A couple of things-you most certainly were taught that 2500' is your decision height for a good canopy. I know you heard it because I reviewed it in the AFF portion of class (after you were taught it in the basic skydiving class earlier in the day). I also know that you were tasked with reporting the altitude on the ride up (remember 1000', 2500', 5500', 6000'?) The radio operator (also an Instructor) may not have been able to see exactly what was going on until you were below your decision height. Regardless, it is YOUR responsibility to decide if you have a good canopy and whether it is safe to land. The radios actually are 2 way, but we don't have you use them so that your hands can always stay on the controls of the parachute.

I can assure you that you were not told to do a practice flare at 400 ft. That is always done first thing as part of the controllability check right after opening. I take huge exception to the statement that the Instructor on the radio didn't know what she was doing. I personally know that she does because she earned her I rating from me. I also take exception to the statement that the staff doesn't have their sh*t together, since I am the Chief Instructor, as well as the S&TA. The reason they pulled the parachute out of rotation was because we were busy and I didn't have time to inspect it.

Since I saw your descent, I will tell you what you had. You had a tension knot. When I saw you go toward the landing area, I said "why is that student flying a canopy with a tension knot?"

You have suggested that the staff doesn't know what they are doing-you are dead wrong. Both of your aerial Instructors and your radio Instructor are highly skilled.

I'm glad you enjoyed your jump and hope you come back, however you and I WILL have a discussion regarding this incident and any remedial training that I deem necessary before you will be able to get back on any of our airplanes.

Greg Bailey D-19203
S/L I/E, IAD I/E, AFF I/E, TDM I/E, Coach E
Master Rigger
S&TA Skydive Warren County

[mjosparky 3]

Sgt.Sausage

Quote

OK, folks, I (reluctantly) agree. No one likes to admit they f*cked up. Here I am admitting it:

Yea you fucked up. And you got busted claiming to know more than the staff.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Southern_Man 0]

You asked what caused tension knots and I don't think anybody has addressed that question. I am a low timer so I am going to give one answer but hope it will also be supplemented (or corrected) by people with much more experience that I have.

One cause of tension knots is that lines get twisted. There are a few reasons for this--one being that brakes are not stowed promptly upon landing. Brakes and other lines should be untwisted when packing. When the lines are not untwisted the lines can curl up on themselves and knot themselves. Can't find a picture, maybe somebody else will post one. It is not a problem that can be corrected in air. I am most familiar w/ it happening on brake lines (and because one end can spin it seems this is the most liable to twist) but it appears you had one on your control lines.

Stowing your brakes upon landing (before releasing toggles from your hands) and performing thorough line checks when packing and untwisting any lines should prevent most tension knots. These are things you should be instructed on at some point. I believe that older lines may be more susceptible to tension knots, but I am not 100% sure of that.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

You asked what caused tension knots and I don't think anybody has addressed that question. I am a low timer so I am going to give one answer but hope it will also be supplemented (or corrected) by people with much more experience that I have.

One cause of tension knots is that lines get twisted. There are a few reasons for this--one being that brakes are not stowed promptly upon landing. Brakes and other lines should be untwisted when packing. When the lines are not untwisted the lines can curl up on themselves and knot themselves. Can't find a picture, maybe somebody else will post one. It is not a problem that can be corrected in air. I am most familiar w/ it happening on brake lines (and because one end can spin it seems this is the most liable to twist) but it appears you had one on your control lines.

Stowing your brakes upon landing (before releasing toggles from your hands) and performing thorough line checks when packing and untwisting any lines should prevent most tension knots. These are things you should be instructed on at some point. I believe that older lines may be more susceptible to tension knots, but I am not 100% sure of that.

Here you go, a short video.

Really: "Oh sh*t" - and really: One quick (re-)action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V84CAV3I7Rg

dudeist skydiver # 3105