Sgt.Sausage 0 #1 July 7, 2011 AFF Jump #1 last Saturday [2011.07.02] BTW - Whoah! I'm hooked. I can't imagine anything better than this. Anyway ... went with 4 buddies (5 of us total), three are coming back for more including myself. I had a minor malfunction. Have no idea what it was. Canopy deployed AOK, but upon waking up from my overwhelming, zoned out sense of "Hey! This sh*t is too cool" I realized that yes, Virginia, the 'chute had opened but I found myself in a medium speed spiral to the left. Looking up I could find no line twist. All cells inflated. No step-thru or line-over or any of the other major malfunctions they taught us about. They gave us three questions to ask ourselves (1) Is it there? Well ... yeah it's there and deployed. (2) Is is square? Umm ... not so much. (3) Can you control it ... yeah, sort of. After eating up 1500 feet playing around trying to figure it out, I found that if I kept the right steering pulled between 2/3 and 3/4 of the way down (I had to keep it below my waist, but not quite as far as I can possibly pull it) just to maintain steady, straight line flight. About every 600 ft on the descent I released the right side steering to see if it had worked itself out. Nope. Every time I tried I starteded into a slow speed left hand spiral. By this time, too late to ditch it, so ride it on in. Coming on the approach to landing (right hand pattern) I couldn't turn the pattern. The 8 or so inches of pull I had left on the right side was not sufficient to make a turn, and by this time I had nothing left in my right arm. I had to stow the left side and reach up higher on the right steering line and pull with both hands, and all my weight, just to make the two 90 degree turns to landing. Trainer on the radio doesn't notice my problems and guides me in. I'm barely able to make the turns in time to land in the designated area. (BTW - our radios were receive only. I had no mic to talk back and notify her of the problem). At about 400 ft she wants me to do a practice flair. Flair what? I've got 6-8 inches on the right of flair (the remaining slack being taken up just to maintain steady, straight flight) and as soon as I grab the left and pull - bingo - right back into a left hand turn. I was gonna land with no flair based on that, but as I approached the radio was screaming "FLAIR FLAIR FLAIR FLAIR". Who am I ? Just a dumb noob. I figured she knew what she was doing (wrong assumption). At about 15-20 ft, I flaired, as instructed and it dumped me into a hard left hand turn and basically stalled. So much for an easy landing on my first landing . So much for assuming your training staff has their sh*t togethere . Noboby could tell me what was wrong. Neither the AFF instructors, nor the girl on the ground. When told of the problem, they just pulled the 'chute out of rotation for the day and said "we'll look at it tonight, but nobody else is jumping on it today". Wasn't a catastrophy, but enquiring minds want to know: What was wrong? I looked up at least 4 times at high altitude, and more as I was coming in for a landing. Didn't see anything obviously wrong. After looking at the photos, though, something doesn't look right. Doesn't look bad - not catastrophic, but ... not quite right. Can I post pics here for comments/discussion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #2 July 7, 2011 Quote Can I post pics here for comments/discussion? Please do. I'd like to see what you had up there...__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sgt.Sausage 0 #3 July 7, 2011 Here's my first attempt at posting pics. They're not very good quality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #4 July 7, 2011 Those photos suggest that there might have been tension knots in the lines. More important than "WHY?", is what to do about it! You need a canopy decision altitude at which you decide if the canopy can land you safely in it's current condition. If it can... cool, land it! If not...GET RID OF IT. At most schools the student canopy decision altitude is 2500 feet. If at 2500 feet it isn't ready to land you safely....Adios! The situation that you describe is more than enough reason for a student to cutaway! You are lucky to walk away from that situation! You could have very easily been badly hurt. Next time be much more demanding of your canopy... if it isn't ready to land you safely at your decision altitude.... get rid of it!The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,732 #5 July 7, 2011 I'm going to go with a tension knot somewhere on the left side brake line. That would pull down one or more of the brake lines above the cascade and cause a turn in that direction. I assume you verified the left side toggle was completely released. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sgt.Sausage 0 #6 July 7, 2011 ==> ... if it isn't ready to land you safely at 2500 ft.... get rid of it! By 2500 ft, I had figured out it was controllable - and it certainly was. What student on his first jump is gonna know something like this is safe or not? The primary instruction I was given, aside from the major malfunctions - the ones causing an immediate cutaway/emergency procedures was to ask myself: "Can I control it?". I had already answered that to the affirmative. It wasn't a high-speed spiral. It was faster than a hard/fast left turn, but it wasn't uncontrollable and the answer to the question was: "Yes - I CAN control it." BTW - pics posted, I edited them and pulled them into a single pic. There was no catastrophic failure that lead me to believe I was in immediate peril, nor anything that lead me to believe I could not land it. I answered my all important question to the affirmative: Yes, I CAN control it. I see no problem with the way I handled the situation. I'm just curious as to what it could have been so I can keep an eye out for it in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sgt.Sausage 0 #7 July 7, 2011 ==> I assume you verified the left side toggle was completely released. Both sides completely release and pumped/flexed fully through their entire range - kinda gave 'em a workout when I was attempting to diagnose the problem and decide if I could control it enough to land it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #8 July 7, 2011 I wasn't going to say anything, but now I am. "...at 400 feet, she wants me to flair. Flair what?..." That's not controllable. I'm not going to beat up on a new guy who landed and walked away from his first jump. Good job on that. Looking back, though, you should see a problem with the way you handled the situation.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeblemind 1 #9 July 7, 2011 Quote You need a canopy decision altitude at which you decide if the canopy can land you safely in it's current condition. If it can... cool, land it! If not...GET RID OF IT. At most schools the student canopy decision altitude is 2500 feet. If at 2500 feet it isn't ready to land you safely....Adios! The situation that you describe is more than enough reason for a student to cutaway! You are lucky to walk away from that situation! You could have very easily been badly hurt. Next time be much more demanding of your canopy... if it isn't ready to land you safely at your decision altitude.... get rid of it! I agree 100%, a controllable canopy may not be one you can land SAFELY! Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #10 July 7, 2011 Getting in the shoes of your instructor here, but since you posted this.... Quote(2) Is is square? Umm ... not so much What were you taught about "not so much"? Over here it's: pump your brakes twice, if problem not solved (ie, canopy is still not square), go to reserve. Like mentioned above, you got away with landing a malfunction, but i hope you think about handling a similar situation differently next time. Controllable means: being able to do a full 360 turn left, a full 360 turn right, and flaring. Sounds like you had 1 out of 3. Which should have meant a reserve ride... Regardless of what the malfunction may be called, that doesn't matter at all if your canopy fails any of these 3 test: there, square and going straight. Sounds like you got lucky this time. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #11 July 7, 2011 Quote Noboby could tell me what was wrong. Neither the AFF instructors, nor the girl on the ground. When told of the problem, they just pulled the 'chute out of rotation for the day and said "we'll look at it tonight, but nobody else is jumping on it today". Did you have a discussion about how you handled the problem? That, to me, is the more important learning from a malfunction situation - not so much "what went wrong?" but "what did you do then?" What did your instructors have to say?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #12 July 7, 2011 OK...I'll bite... Quote By 2500 ft, I had figured out it was controllable - and it certainly was. It certainly wasn't. Could you flare for landing? No. Could you turn in both directions smoothly? No. Quote What student on his first jump is gonna know something like this is safe or not? Nearly every one. EDITED TO ADD (Thanks Nigel): Every student should be able to determine a good canopy vs a not-so-good canopy by using the square-stable-steerable concept and procedure...assuming, of course, that they were taught that. Does that mean that every student can do it? No. Some "get it" some don't. Quote "Can I control it?". I had already answered that to the affirmative. See above. Quote It was faster than a hard/fast left turn, I'm curious to know how you knew that given that this was your first jump. Tandem beforehand maybe? Quote I see no problem with the way I handled the situation Can you see other possibilities now? Yes, you landed and walked away Good on you. Next time it may not happen that way and as long as you are happy with the potentials for disaster, carry on. Quote I'm just curious as to what it could have been so I can keep an eye out for it in the future. Yes, Tension Knots - brake line-stabilizer line-D line(?) One other thing. Why in the world would you be so critical and condemning of your radio operation and ground contact? I'm fairly sure you were taught how to do all this as though there were no radio, right? All in all...good stuff. You jumped, you lived. You're ready to move forward. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 106 #13 July 7, 2011 Quote They gave us three questions to ask ourselves ... (2) Is is square? Umm ... not so much. (3) Can you control it ... yeah, sort of. Yeah, the answer to #2 should have tipped you off (and the point should have been emphasized by your answer to #3). Hard to tell what is causing the deformation, but it looks like the left side stabolizer is pulled inward, and possibly knotted with the C/D lines coming off between cells 2 and 3. I can understand your reaction, particularly on a first jump. Seems kind of stable (if you do what you did; not realizing the cost involved in doing the things needed to keep it stable (and question 3 is not "is it stable if you are yanking on one toggle about 3/4 of the way)) and the alternative is to give that up for another round of freefall. Thinking back to myself at your stage not very long ago, I might have made the same, but clearly very wrong, decision. I wouldn't now, but I have enough jumps to where I would have no fear at all to briefly freefall again after a chop, and I better understand the risks involved in trying to land something in that state. Anyway, at least you survived without serious injury. So congrats. (And you don't have to buy beer! ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 290 #14 July 7, 2011 A control check includes a flare. I can understand on a first jump that you missed that step, but it would have shown you that it was not possible to flare the canopy. QuoteThere was no catastrophic failure that lead me to believe I was in immediate peril, nor anything that lead me to believe I could not land it. I answered my all important question to the affirmative: Yes, I CAN control it. Just remember that at altitude it can be extremely difficult to gauge a "safe" rate of descent with no frame of reference.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 290 #15 July 7, 2011 Quote Quote What student on his first jump is gonna know something like this is safe or not? Nearly every one. I disagree with you pops. I would say that most (if not all) first jump students do NOT know, if this is safe to land, and should therefore go through with their emergency procedures. An experienced jumper might be able to make a judgement call, and decide to land it regardless. Feel free to burn me at the stake if I am wrongExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sgt.Sausage 0 #16 July 7, 2011 ==> Can you see other possibilities now? OK, folks, I (reluctantly) agree. No one likes to admit they f*cked up. Here I am admitting it: ACKNOWLEDGED! I didn't handle this one appropriately. Important lesson learned. Good advice from your past experiences will be taken into consideration in my next (and all subsequent/future) jumps. *** Back to why I originally posted: I was looking for opinions on what the malfunction appeared to be. It seems that most of are the opinion it was some kind of tension knot. Can someone describe to me how these happen? Where they typically happen (is one area more common than another?) Are they something that happens with the way it's packed, or can it happen as just one of those things that can go wrong on a deployment, even if it was a solid, A1 packing job? I'm trying to learn here. Lesson 1 from this jump is above: I f*cked up. Teach me some more on Lesson 2: Tension Knots. Thank you all for your input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #17 July 7, 2011 Exactly. Most, if not all, first jump students should know that this canopy is not safe to land. If it was as bad as the OP said, I doubt most experienced jumpers would think it was safe to land either. I was taught four questions: Is it there? Is it square? Can I steer it? Can I land it? The last two are answered by doing a full control check (right turn and left turn answers the first question, a flare answers the last). - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LDiCosimo 0 #18 July 7, 2011 Quote QuoteAfter eating up 1500 feet playing around trying to figure it out, I found that if I kept the right steering pulled between 2/3 and 3/4 of the way down (I had to keep it below my waist, but not quite as far as I can possibly pull it) just to maintain steady, straight line flight. If you have to hold a toggle down to keep your canopy in level flight that's OK as long as it's NOT below your shoulder QuoteBy this time, too late to ditch it, so ride it on in. What was your decision altitude? They would have pounded into your head throughout the course as well as quizzing you on the ride to alt. QuoteComing on the approach to landing (right hand pattern) I couldn't turn the pattern. The 8 or so inches of pull I had left on the right side was not sufficient to make a turn, and by this time I had nothing left in my right arm. I'll repeat the shoulder level compensation rule. QuoteWasn't a catastrophy, on anything but a student canopy it might mean broken bones I've sat in first jump courses, sat next to AFF level 1 jumpers on the plane still going over all of this. I don't believe your instructors would have let you leave the plane without this basic knowledge that had been getting pounded into your head for 6 hours. I think this boils down to reserve fear. Please do not be afraid to cut away and ride the reserve. This may sound harsh but it's better you hear it now than debriefing in the ER waiting room. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sgt.Sausage 0 #19 July 7, 2011 ==> I think this boils down to reserve fear. Please do not be afraid to cut away and ride the reserve. Bingo - I think we have a winner! All joking aside, in hindsight, this is probably the correct diagnosis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LDiCosimo 0 #20 July 7, 2011 It's a scary thing. I had a cutaway on jump 30 or so. I was pretty freaked out. But those things are made to open if nothing else especially if you cutaway from such a stable position not spinning like I was (and it still worked fine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #21 July 7, 2011 Quote Just remember that at altitude it can be extremely difficult to gauge a "safe" rate of descent with no frame of reference. Thanks for making that very important point, Nigel. I spent a month on crutches after landing a minor malfunction. It seemed fine up high, but once I got to treetop level I knew I was in trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #22 July 7, 2011 Hey Sgt., minor malfunction, minor mistake on your part. Next time stick with the checklist "square, flying straight, slider down, steerable." If you had do-overs, I bet you'd chop it. Thanks for not cutting away too low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #23 July 7, 2011 Quote Quote Quote What student on his first jump is gonna know something like this is safe or not? Nearly every one. I disagree with you pops. I would say that most (if not all) first jump students do NOT know, if this is safe to land, and should therefore go through with their emergency procedures. An experienced jumper might be able to make a judgement call, and decide to land it regardless. Feel free to burn me at the stake if I am wrong Not at all. You are entirely correct about youngster/oldster being able to tell good/bad. I'm sorry that I gave you the impression that students can make those decisions without doing the entire square/stable/steerable procedure. I commented from the perspective that nearly every student can (or should have been taught how to) make those decisions based on the results of square/stable/steerable. I edited my post (12) for clarification on that...Thanks, Nigel.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #24 July 7, 2011 You may want to reconsider everything you posted. Little of it makes sense....especially for young jumpers such as yourself. I'd be careful telling anybody that it's safe to land a canopy that requires half brakes on one side...especially a young jumper. I have no clue as to where you came up with that "shoulder level compensation rule"...something you made up? I'd be careful telling people how to conduct an FJC. The only thing you posted that makes sense is, "...it's better you hear it now than debriefing in the ER waiting room. "...My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #25 July 7, 2011 QuoteOK, folks, I (reluctantly) agree. No one likes to admit they f*cked up. Here I am admitting it: Sarge...you are the man! Keep that attitude throughout your skydiving career and you'll be a much better and safer skydiver. Tip o' the Hat.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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Sgt.Sausage 0 #19 July 7, 2011 ==> I think this boils down to reserve fear. Please do not be afraid to cut away and ride the reserve. Bingo - I think we have a winner! All joking aside, in hindsight, this is probably the correct diagnosis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LDiCosimo 0 #20 July 7, 2011 It's a scary thing. I had a cutaway on jump 30 or so. I was pretty freaked out. But those things are made to open if nothing else especially if you cutaway from such a stable position not spinning like I was (and it still worked fine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #21 July 7, 2011 Quote Just remember that at altitude it can be extremely difficult to gauge a "safe" rate of descent with no frame of reference. Thanks for making that very important point, Nigel. I spent a month on crutches after landing a minor malfunction. It seemed fine up high, but once I got to treetop level I knew I was in trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #22 July 7, 2011 Hey Sgt., minor malfunction, minor mistake on your part. Next time stick with the checklist "square, flying straight, slider down, steerable." If you had do-overs, I bet you'd chop it. Thanks for not cutting away too low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 July 7, 2011 Quote Quote Quote What student on his first jump is gonna know something like this is safe or not? Nearly every one. I disagree with you pops. I would say that most (if not all) first jump students do NOT know, if this is safe to land, and should therefore go through with their emergency procedures. An experienced jumper might be able to make a judgement call, and decide to land it regardless. Feel free to burn me at the stake if I am wrong Not at all. You are entirely correct about youngster/oldster being able to tell good/bad. I'm sorry that I gave you the impression that students can make those decisions without doing the entire square/stable/steerable procedure. I commented from the perspective that nearly every student can (or should have been taught how to) make those decisions based on the results of square/stable/steerable. I edited my post (12) for clarification on that...Thanks, Nigel.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 July 7, 2011 You may want to reconsider everything you posted. Little of it makes sense....especially for young jumpers such as yourself. I'd be careful telling anybody that it's safe to land a canopy that requires half brakes on one side...especially a young jumper. I have no clue as to where you came up with that "shoulder level compensation rule"...something you made up? I'd be careful telling people how to conduct an FJC. The only thing you posted that makes sense is, "...it's better you hear it now than debriefing in the ER waiting room. "...My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 July 7, 2011 QuoteOK, folks, I (reluctantly) agree. No one likes to admit they f*cked up. Here I am admitting it: Sarge...you are the man! Keep that attitude throughout your skydiving career and you'll be a much better and safer skydiver. Tip o' the Hat.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites