Which is the greater killer, skydiving or base jumping

[LilZilla 2]

A friend of mine and I were talking yesterday and were debating on whether skydiving or base jumping had the highest casualty ratio. The number of jumpers involved per number of casualties. I believe that skyidiving would but she has some strong arguments to back her side up. What do you guys think. Which has the greater casualty ratio? Alot is at stake on this little bet so don't let me down guys.

[diablopilot 2]

Get a better hobby.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,400]

BASE jumping is more likely to kill you as a participant, everything else being equal. There are generally more deaths in skydiving overall because far more people skydive than BASE jump.

[hookitt 0]

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Alot is at stake on this little bet so don't let me down guys.

whatever

...

Besides why would you think skydiving wins the game of killing people over BASE jumping killing people?

Common sense shows that BASE is inherently more dangerous than skydiving. Who knows which game kills more people or shall I say is the greater killer, but my guess is you probably lose the bet.

What's at stake here? If it's really a lot, I can change the answer to suit the desired answer.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[phoenixlpr 0]

Anyway statistics won't tell you if you die in or not.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Do I get a cut of the incredibly large stakes that ride on this game? If not: sorry, you loose, you're wrong, your friend's right.

[goose491 0]

Think about it,

For the most part: One parachute, No time, Objects and Terrain, Still-air, remote areas or areas where you have gone in secret... etc

More people die each year skydiving but that's because there is a great many more skydivers then there are BASE jumpers.

In terms of odds and numbers, BASE is by far more likely to take you.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[LilZilla 2]

Sorry if this question rubbed some people the wrong way. My friend and I were discussing safety and it lead to deaths involved in the sport. Its not like Im a morbid dude who gets off on this shit. I was just curious on the matter. I had always figured that skydiving would be the cause of greater death, dont know why. The more I think about it though, the more I feel like a noob. I know that base jumping is far more dangerous but didn't think that it would out do skydiving.

[The111 0]

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There are generally more deaths in skydiving overall because far more people skydive than BASE jump.

He asked for casualty ratios, which I'd imagine aren't readily available.

But incident ratio is not always directly correlated with risk level. My example is driving a car vs piloting a passenger jet. There are many more car accidents (both gross numbers and per capita, however you would measure that) than airliner accidents. However, driving a car is much safer than flying a jet.

Eh, but then if you add in the risk of all the other morons on the road, it might turn out driving is more dangerous again.

Regardless of that, my point remains that the numerous car traffic accidents I see are usually people trying to negotiate a simple problem and failing because they are distracted or not skilled enough. I.e. they're screwing up often at something that's rarely difficult/dangerous. As opposed to commercial pilots who screw up rarely at things that are often difficult/dangerous.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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But incident ratio is not always directly correlated with risk level. My example is driving a car vs piloting a passenger jet. There are many more car accidents (both gross numbers and per capita, however you would measure that) than airliner accidents. However, driving a car is much safer than flying a jet.

eh? A passenger jet pilot has at least one other pilot next to him. His job requires much more skill/training than a cager on the road, but the numbers show it's not riskier.

As for base versus skydiving, base IS skydiving, just with one parachute instead of two, and is nearly always done closer to the ground than any of us would want to cutaway our main. And thanks to legal issues, is often done in the dark. Using the same argument I made above, the basers do bring higher skill to the table, but I don't believe it's enough to make up for the higher risk factors.

[goose491 0]

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As for base versus skydiving, base IS skydiving...

BASE is NOT Skydiving.

The only thing the two have in common is the use of a parachute. These are two very very distinct and different sports.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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As for base versus skydiving, base IS skydiving...

BASE is NOT Skydiving.

The only thing the two have in common is the use of a parachute. These are two very very distinct and different sports.

Does that make the two like baseball and softball?

Come on - both involve falling to the ground, arrested by a parachute which is used to land. Hardly distinct from each other.

[billvon 2,400]

>Does that make the two like baseball and softball?

More like baseball and pinball. They both use balls, and you hit them and they roll and (sometimes) fly, but the similarity ends there.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>Does that make the two like baseball and softball?

More like baseball and pinball. They both use balls, and you hit them and they roll and (sometimes) fly, but the similarity ends there.

Skydivers and base jumpers use very similar looking harnesses/containers, similar looking parachutes (larger 7 cells), steer with the same toggles and risers. Both can do relative work, track away (from each other or an object). The goals of each activity are similar - fall off something, have fun, land safely. Virtually all base jumpers were skydivers, and most still are.

Sorry, don't see so many similiarities between pinball and baseball. Maybe you should have gone with cricket. Base is an offshoot of the sport - maybe further off than wing suit, for example, but not by much. For that matter ,you have base wing suit jumping. As DZ.com puts it, a related sport.

[TomAiello 25]

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As for base versus skydiving, base IS skydiving...

Just to echo what's already been said. BASE is in no way, shape or form, skydiving. Pinball and baseball is a pretty good analogy.

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...with one parachute instead of two, and is nearly always done closer to the ground than any of us would want to cutaway our main.

In all seriousness, what's your level of BASE experience?

Statistically, the biggest danger in BASE is not related to either altitude or the number of parachutes. It's object strike, which is independent of a reserve parachute, or the altitude to use it.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Skydivers and base jumpers use very similar looking harnesses/containers...

I don't really think they look very similar. The different number of parachutes, lack of a reserve, missing handles, in some cases lack of cutaway system--all these things make the gear look very different, even to a casual inspection.

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Both can do relative work...

Can you tell us how many relative work BASE jumps you have?


The critical differences between skydiving and BASE are in (a) the major hazards (the major hazard of BASE does not exist in the skydiving environment), (b) the possible problems (again, the major problems of BASE do not exist in the skydiving environment, and the major hazards of skydiving are usually absent in the BASE environment), and (c) the life saving equipment necessary to participate in the activity (which is different in several very fundamental ways).


Can you give us a quick rundown on your skydiving and BASE experience, so that we can understand the basis for your opinion?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[AFFI 0]

Which is more dangerous, masturbation or unprotected sex with a crack whore?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Just to echo what's already been said. BASE is in no way, shape or form, skydiving. Pinball and baseball is a pretty good analogy.

I was just itching for you to join in, Tom. If BASE is 'in no way, shape or form, skydiving," then why the fuck do you suggest people do 200 skydives before starting BASE? The base companies suggests 150 or 200, Bridge Day mandates 50. I think that effectively ends the discussion. Not sure why it was even necessary in the first place. Does it tarnish BASE to be associated with skydiving?

Do you also recommend people play 200 hours of pinball before joining a softball league? Or are we going to admit the analogy is bullshit too?

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"Make the Skydives

First, make at least 200 skydives. You need to make these skydives in order to practice accuracy, tracking and canopy control skills. You also need to establish a general comfort level with parachutes, free fall, and split second decisions. The skydivers who are best prepared for BASE generally jump large, 7 cell, F-111 canopies, have had a number of malfunctions and responded correctly, and are comfortable with multiple skydiving disciplines. If your only focus is BASE jumping, don't succumb to the temptation to become canopy swooping freeflyer. Instead, focus on CRW and Accuracy as your skydiving disciplines."
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[TomAiello 25]

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Do you also recommend people play 200 hours of pinball before joining a softball league? Or are we going to admit the analogy is bullshit too?

Here's a better analogy. It's like Swimming and Water Polo. Being a competent swimmer is necessary to play water polo. But being a world champion butterflyer isn't going to make you a better water polo player. And being a great polo player isn't going to make you better at butterfly. Eggbeater kick is critical to playing polo--and irrelevant to swimming. The major challenges of polo are unrelated to competitive swimming (they are things like passing the ball, shooting goals, getting out of the water, etc). You can be a mediocre swimmer and an all-american polo player, and you can also be an all american swimmer and a mediocre polo player. Being an authority on water polo does not make you an authority on swimming, and vice versa.

Now let's reword that as BASE and Skydiving. Being a competent skydiver is necessary to BASE jump. But being a world champion freeflyer isn't going to make you a better BASE jumper. And being a great BASE jumper doesn't make you any better at 4 way. Object avoidance is critical to BASE--and irrelevant to skydiving. The major challenges of BASE are unrelated to skydiving (they are things like object evaluation, object avoidance, and re-rigging in the field). You can be a mediocre skydiver and a world class BASE jumper, and you can also be a world class skydiver and a mediocre BASE jumper. Being an authority on BASE jumping does not make you an authority on skydiving, and vice versa.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Does it tarnish BASE to be associated with skydiving?

Sometimes it tarnishes BASE to be associated with particular skydivers--usually the ones who think that their knowledge of skydiving automatically makes them experts at BASE. Oddly, those are usually people with between 50 and 500 skydives. It's very rare for a very experienced skydiver to make that mistake.

So, um, what did you say your level of BASE and skydiving experience was?

edit: typo

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,400]

>Skydivers and base jumpers use very similar looking
>harnesses/containers, similar looking parachutes (larger 7 cells),
>steer with the same toggles and risers. Both can do relative work,
> track away (from each other or an object). The goals of each
>activity are similar - fall off something, have fun, land safely.
>Virtually all base jumpers were skydivers, and most still are.

I could make a similar list between baseball and pinball - both hit a ball with a tool, require you to understand trajectories and basic physics, require a lot of hand-eye coordination etc. Heck, pinball is just a refinement of pool, which is as competitive as baseball. But it's gone in a very different direction.

Likewise, BASE and skydiving have a common ancestry but have gone in different directions. When I started in BASE, it was common to use a skydiving main (i.e. a Cruislite, Raven or Pursuit) and a skydiving rig. Pack jobs were essentially CRW pack jobs. Then they started to diverge. Skydiving canopies got smaller; BASE canopies got larger. Single canopy containers became common. The brake line release and tailgate were developed independently of skydiving, just as crossbracing, ZP canopies and booties developed independently of BASE. Nowadays they are two very distinct sports.

I think it's a big mistake to think of BASE jumpers as skydivers with one less canopy, just as it would be a big mistake to think of skydivers as BASE jumpers with more freefall time. A good many BASE jumpers almost never see freefall speeds above 80kts; a good many skydivers never see freefall speeds below 80kts. They're just not that similar, although they do involve some of the same basics.

[kelpdiver 2]

hey, I'll answer your stupid questions when you answer my stupid ones.

If BASE is in no way shape or form, skydiving, then why do 200 skydives as a prerequisite? Oh right, to gain all the indentical skills in that sport that has absolutely no ressemblence to the other one.

Actually to get my answer you'll also need to show where I claimed expertise at either base or skydiving. I will only claim to be an expert at reading.

At least the analogies are improving, though swimming is still far more distant from water polo. Pool swimming and swimming Alcatraz are better.

[TomAiello 25]

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hey, I'll answer your stupid questions when you answer my stupid ones.

Ok. Promise?

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If BASE is in no way shape or form, skydiving, then why do 200 skydives as a prerequisite?

To develop necessary, but not sufficient skills.

This is roughly the same as making someone learn to swim before they try to play water polo.

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At least the analogies are improving, though swimming is still far more distant from water polo. Pool swimming and swimming Alcatraz are better.

I'm curious if you've ever swum competitively or played water polo?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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Likewise, BASE and skydiving have a common ancestry but have gone in different directions.

So you'll yield the common ancestry. I still don't see why you see a similar relationship between baseball and pinball, just because they use round objects and tools. A significant number of sports played meet such limited criteria.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If BASE is in no way shape or form, skydiving, then why do 200 skydives as a prerequisite?

To develop necessary, but not sufficient skills.

That's an answer!? Clintonesque, I tell you!

I hope no one is gaining blood pressure over this. Look, the question was which was more hazardous - I wrote that base has every risk associated with skydiving, plus those associated with one canopy and low altitude. It was not an all inclusive list of the deltas, just a simple proof. You aren't going to argue that skydiving is the more dangerous one, are you? I also wrote that the participants are higher skilled.

hey, if you want to go on about how totally different pulling your risers to avoid a cliff is from avoiding a nearby RW jumper, or how landing in the woods near a cliff is different from landing in the woods that may have a cliff nearby, or how the dead air exit is different from a ballon exit, go ahead. As much as I liked my first heli jumps in June, the only fixed object of interest to me is in Yosemite, and I don't expect to ever be qualified to do it. I'll be content to play driver a buddy.

Water polo? shit - clear water with a couple dozen people? And headgear, no? Try swimming in water so murky you can't see your hands with 1400 other people and one really pissed off sea lion.