Did you progress too fast?

[cocheese 0]

Do you regret the freedom you had to progress in the sport? Did this cause you to get hurt or hurt anyone else?

Let us hear from those who wish they had more time or experience before they downsized etc.

[virgin-burner 1]

dont have any regrets just yet - never got hurt, never have hurt someone else!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[cocheese 0]

Let us hear from those who wish they had more time or experience before they downsized etc.

[wmw999 2,166]

I don't think so; I had about 70 cheapo jumps before I got my first high-performance round, and nearly 500 before buying a square

Not scared, just poor. My first rig cost me $400, and it took a noticeable amount of saving to round that up.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[cocheese 0]

Nobody regrets downsizing from a round.

[wildcard451 0]

Even though I had been doing about 300 hop and pops in a row and dedicated canopy exercises, I went through the "summer of rapid downsizing" where I went from a XF2 169 @ 1.48 to a Velo 111 @ 2.2 over about 6 months and 250 hop and pops.

What happened? ...a bunch of good slides, some torn pants, and a nice crash that should have broken my ankle, yet, just a bad sprain that still hurts me two years later.
I learned a few bad habits that took me a while to undue, and hindered my start in competition swooping.

Now two years later and a good bit of competing has taught me more than I ever thought I could do with a canopy, and yet, I still know nothing compared to my peers.

Should have taken it slower. I didn't. The pain reminds me daily.

[billvon 2,466]

>dont have any regrets just yet

And here's to hoping you wise up and keep it that way!

[virgin-burner 1]

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>keep it that way!

AB-SO-FUCKING-LUTELY!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Deisel 37]

Great question.
No regrets. I became an AFFI the minute that I had the freefall time to do it. Although I was able to demonstrate the skill to get my ratings, I had not seen just how bad a student jump can get. But then again – if you don’t jump with students, you may never see some of the bad stuff that can happen. IT IS NOT JUST ANOTHER RW JUMP!

What have I learned? NEVER take a jump for granted. Always believe that your student could kill you – they can and at any time. There is no perfect student. Shit can get ugly really quick. Much quicker than you can think and respond. Only experience can overcome some scenarios. And unfortunately, our instructor system is broken. There is no requirement to update your skill set. There is no requirement for in-service training. Hell – there is no training beyond getting your rating. It is quite disappointing and a little scary when you think about it.

Our pilot brothers are required to be able to demonstrate any and all required skills at any time to any examiner. Think what would happen if the old salts were ever asked to prove that they still have what it takes to hold their ratings on any given day. Makes you think.

D

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[danielcroft 2]

I started doing 4 way competition @ ~30 jumps. That was too much. It was overload for me. I don't think people should be stopped from doing it though.

[almeister112 0]

I haven't hurt myself or others due to my progression for one big reason: I've been very conservative in my choices and listened to advice.

I made one dodgy canopy decision: I went from a 210 rental canopy to the Sabre 170 I got with my first rig. I was really nervous on that first jump, and I probably should have rented a 190. But I got through it just fine. I then did about 400 jumps on the 170 until moving to my Storm 150, which I plan to stick with for at least several hundred more jumps. I'll probably eventually downsize to a 135, but I don't see myself ever getting below a 120 at the smallest.

I also followed the recommendations for wingsuits (now a BSR) and cameras. I made sure I had 200 jumps before trying either. Would I have survived strapping a GoPro to my head at 100 jumps? Probably. But I really didn't know anything at that point, and the added distraction really would not have been good for me.

The question is do I think we need more regulation. My answer is we need fewer over-eager young skydivers who think they're awesome and don't need to listen to the guys who've been jumping since the 60's. I'm 23, and while I'm confident in my skills, I will always listen to the guy who has 10,000 jumps and has been in the sport since before I was born. He's probably right; at the very least he has something to say that's worth considering. If we all followed the recommendations we'd be in much better shape, but too many people don't. I personally didn't need more regulation since I was conservative in my approach, but I think we owe it to new jumpers to rein in their enthusiasm to keep them alive. Some kind of sign-off on canopy skills (with or without a jump # requirement) before downsizing sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[AggieDave 6]

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Do you regret the freedom you had to progress in the sport? Did this cause you to get hurt or hurt anyone else?

Let us hear from those who wish they had more time or experience before they downsized etc.

Yes I do.

No I didn't get hurt, but I came very close a couple of times. What I regret is that due to my unwillingness to listen in the beginning, I had to spend a LOT of time unlearning canopy control skills. Then I had to relearn them the right way. Thankfully Scott Miller was a thoughtful and patient canopy coach.

If I had done things the right way I would have actually been a better swooper sooner. Instead it took me much longer to progress properly and to achieve what I have now. I look at it as having lost two solid years of competing due to my desire to downsize too quickly (it took me 2 years longer to get to a competitive level).

I'm one of the lucky ones, I didn't get hurt or hurt anyone else.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NWFlyer 2]

Canopy-wise, nope, not at all. I've been conservative since the beginning and I still am. I've downsized from a 230 to a 210... and stopped. Just bought a 210 to build a second rig. No intentions of going any smaller.

Otherwise, though, there were probably quite a few jumps I "got away with" early in my career. Being on jumps that were probably bigger than I should've been on given my overall level of awareness. Being in canopy traffic that was busier than I was perhaps ready for. The big sky theory worked, but it doesn't mean that those were the greatest of choices. As I've matured in the sport, of course, I've become more aware of how much I don't know that I don't know, and that's helped me to build awareness and make better choices in general.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DaVinciflies 0]

Can you expand on your answer? What exactly did you have to unlearn?

[ciscobird 0]

Canopy size-wise, definitely yeah...

When I first started out, I was renting a 190 that I was able to stand up on nearly every landing... When I was given an opportunity to buy a complete rig with a 7-cell 160 I expressed my reservation but was assured (by somebody I highly regarded) that I would handle it just fine.

So for the next year or so, nearly every landing I made was either sliding or bouncing (some hard ones)... Sometimes making me want to quit the sport for good. I sticked to it until one day everything clicked... Of course, taking a canopy piloting course helped some...

[Baksteen 84]

twenty jumps on a 280, sixty on a 240, twenty on a 210. Then on to the 190 which has served me well for at least 200 jumps. Got into CReW and made some 50 jumps on a Lightning 175 (with and without some lead). Now I'm going to try a Lightning 160. For freefall I'm keeping that nice Storm 190 with the awesome flare power.

No regrets. I'd rather wear some lead than try out a canopy which is too hot for me. And should I mislike the 160, well - it's back tot the 175 for me.
Now, I'm saving up for one of those nice new Optimum reserves; the ones which are said to pack small enough that you can put a bigger reserve in your container.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[AggieDave 6]

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Can you expand on your answer? What exactly did you have to unlearn?

The concepts of the pattern, slow flight and accuracy and how they apply to swooping. With out accuracy with the pattern and slow flight, you'll never be able to accurately get to your initiation point at the right altitude, direction and flight configuration.

So it took a long time of learning how to do that, but doing that with a much faster canopy. A canopy that I was able to fly "OK" normally, but was way too much canopy for me if something went wrong or I was trying to swoop.

Swooping is the application of the basics, refined to a razor edge and applied perfectly at exactly the right time. I didn't get that back then. I thought it was all front risers and beer lines.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wildcard451 0]

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Can you expand on your answer? What exactly did you have to unlearn?

The concepts of the pattern, slow flight and accuracy and how they apply to swooping. With out accuracy with the pattern and slow flight, you'll never be able to accurately get to your initiation point at the right altitude, direction and flight configuration.

So it took a long time of learning how to do that, but doing that with a much faster canopy. A canopy that I was able to fly "OK" normally, but was way too much canopy for me if something went wrong or I was trying to swoop.

Swooping is the application of the basics, refined to a razor edge and applied perfectly at exactly the right time. I didn't get that back then. I thought it was all front risers and beer lines.

Think of it as giving the keys to an F1 car to a 18 y/o kid that hasn't ever raced, but just driven street legal cars. They aren't gonna know how to keep the right line on the track, etc, and prolly gonna do some damage in the process. It's gonna take them a lot longer to learn that car than an 18y/o kid that has been racing since they were 8, and they will be lucky if they don't die in the process.

[Squeak 17]

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Let us hear from those who wish they had more time or experience before they downsized etc.

At 40ish I went from a Skymaster 230 to a Hornet 150, then at 400 jumps went to a Stiletto 135, still on that now.
Going from the Hornet to the stiletto was a bigger mistaker than going from the SM to the Hornet (which itself was a mistake).
I would like to have (in hindsight) spent a few more hundred jumps on the hornet, and learned to wring it neck before going fully elliptical.
I don't currently do "HP " landings but in low/nil winds the landings are by no means slow. I load the Stiletto at between 1.55- 1.6.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[PhreeZone 15]

I have had two friends die now due to their progression choices. One was doing 270's on a canopy at 1.6 or so at 400 jumps and just did his last turn too low and lasted about 16 hours in the hospital. The other one was rarely jumping but decided he needed a fully elliptical canopy at about 1.4 loading around 150 jumps or so and ended up in a poor landing area and did a panic turn. No one was able to stop their decisions or the freedom they had in the sport so I ended up doing 2 different ash dives in 9 months

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wildcard451 0]

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I have had two friends die now due to their progression choices. One was doing 270's on a canopy at 1.6 or so at 400 jumps and just did his last turn too low and lasted about 16 hours in the hospital. The other one was rarely jumping but decided he needed a fully elliptical canopy at about 1.4 loading around 150 jumps or so and ended up in a poor landing area and did a panic turn. No one was able to stop their decisions or the freedom they had in the sport so I ended up doing 2 different ash dives in 9 months

Can we get a post stickyfied with the links to Ted and Sangi's and other people who have been TBTB at the top of Canopy Control? Actually, I don;t know why I ask, it won;t change anything.

[Austintxflight 0]

I disagree it does help, there are people who will always push the limits, and those few may never get the message from reading about someone elses misfortune.

But there are those who maybe are fast learners, progress quickly but are not fully aware of their decisions, and the extra information gives them pause as to what their choices should be on canopies or flight choices.

[wildcard451 0]

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I disagree it does help, there are people who will always push the limits, and those few may never get the message from reading about someone elses misfortune.

But there are those who maybe are fast learners, progress quickly but are not fully aware of their decisions, and the extra information gives them pause as to what their choices should be on canopies or flight choices.

They still have to heed the warning.

I do so dislike working on broken and dead jumpers.

[holie 0]

Did progress fast! But not too fast, as asked

Did not cause me to get hurt or hurt anyone else ...

[pchapman 262]

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I have had two friends die now due to their progression choices.[...]No one was able to stop their decisions or the freedom they had in the sport

I appreciate their sacrifice for others' freedom. Or alternatively, damn them for trying to destroy others' freedom by screwing up.

The high wing loading made things worse for them but that wasn't the sole cause. Making bad off-landing choices and starting to swoop without a proper progression did it for them.

As for my progression:

My downsizing to try out small canopies was reasonable in an old school way: After about 190 jumps on big F-111 canopies, I took a dozen jumps total on 3 progressively smaller sizes of ZP canopies, before I started flying a Jonathan 92 at 1.8 loading for a few jumps.

Although running out the landings wasn't always pretty, even on a hot no-wind summer day I could handle it. I wouldn't want to have such an experience taken away from me because of someone else screwing up and causing simplistic wing loading requirements to be put in place. I don't want to inflict those kinds of rules on today's newbies just because it won't affect me with plenty of jumps now.

Flying the little canopy wasn't that big a deal because they were high hop and pops, not deploying low after RW, not mixing it up with other traffic, not taking it to Eloy on holiday. Nor was I trying to crank hook turns on it, I wasn't flying it every day in all conditions, and the total risk (as opposed to the per jump risk) was low due to limited number of jumps I was making on the canopy. Plus I was already a pilot and aerospace engineer with some understanding of flight and risk.

None of those factors are taken into account by simplistic blanket wing loading restrictions. (I might agree to some wing loading restrictions as long as one had the ability to get local experienced jumpers provide waivers.)

As for the canopy types that I regularly flew, the progression really had few steps in it:

I owned a big F-111 accuracy canopy for years, then a Sabre 135, then an FX 88 (at 1.9 WL). While I had tried the FX at jump 550, I didn't buy it until jump 775. At that time I had only about 90 jumps on zero-P of 1.2 wing loading or more.

Going from flying accuracy plus occasional Sabre 135 or Stiletto 120 jumps, right to a sub 100 crossbraced, was clearly a bit sudden.

That sort of sudden progression certainly made it harder for me to learn to swoop well. If that's one's goal, then the canopy choice was poor.

But what's to say that the only goal possible in skydiving is to swoop competitively? The tempation to swoop too hard too soon is so much greater now, with it being so common and seen as the cool thing.

Today we benefit from having more canopies that provide a stepping stone towards small crossbraced canopies, like Katanas and Crossfires.

Although I have been quite harsh about resisting wing loading rules, I am saying all this as someone who has run canopy control courses and does care about teaching newer jumpers to fly safely and make knowledgeable choices.