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mixedup

ground speed for a good landing in no wind? (0.95 wing loading)

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Background - Flying a 210 Safire-2 at 0.95 wing loading. Need more practice landing, and yep I'll need to get some instructors to watch me/film me I think to help improve from here on in. In no wind I feel I'm flaring ok but still have a reasonable amount of forward horizontal speed, a little too much to run out for me at the moment (again no wind scenario), hence I PLF.

Question - Specific question however I had however was what sort of ground speed (horizontal) would one expect to get down to for a good no-wind landing, for a 210 Safire-2 at 0.95 wing loading? (i.e. in the case one flares perfectly)

Not expecting a precise answer, but more at the level of:
- zero horizontal speed and lightly just walk onto ground (which I kind of doubt in no wind)
- walking speed
- running speed
- >running speed

Cheers
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Full flight, toggles all the way up and canopy just flying, is going to be roughly 20 mph. No, I don't have solid figures to back that up, just a rough guess.

Your ground speed at landing, the moment, you touch the ground could be anywhere from that to zero depending on how you control your canopy. Understand that at zero airspeed (which in your question would equal zero ground speed) your sink rate might be pretty high or not, again depending on how YOU control your canopy.
quade -
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Generally speaking, it's safer to carry a bit of forward airspeed because it gives you a bit more margin of error. On a no-wind landing I think you'll find most people under docile canopies are landing about the speed of a slow jog. Of course, if a person misjudges their flair they might be running or sliding along the ground at a good clip.

That said, the folks with Pro Ratings should be able to easily land within just a few feet even on a no-wind landing.
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>Specific question however I had however was what sort of ground speed
>(horizontal) would one expect to get down to for a good no-wind landing,
>for a 210 Safire-2 at 0.95 wing loading? (i.e. in the case one flares
>perfectly)

Slow running speed. One "big" step and then stop almost immediately.

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Assuming into the wind and proper brake line trim, if you still have excess forward speed at landing, you are flaring too low and touching down before your brakes slow the canopy down enough on plane-out.

A series of jumps:
-flare the same technique but do it 1-2 ft higher.
-repeat as necessary, 1-2 ft higher each time, until you find the best flare height for the flare technique you are using.

It's possible, and not hard to learn, to get tip-toe standups on your canopy in no-wind conditions. It's important that you get a full flare.

You can use that info when you learn other flaring techniques.

And yes, Bill is correct in that, "Slow running speed. One "big" step and then stop almost immediately. " is much more common for people and is very much within acceptable limits to the vast majority.


Points to ponder....
- can you stall your canopy using the toggles with no wraps or do you have to take wraps to stall it with your toggles.

If you can stall it with no-wrap toggles, you need to be aware of that so you don't stall it too high at landing.
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Assuming into the wind and proper brake line trim, if you still have excess forward speed at landing, you are flaring too low and touching down before your brakes slow the canopy down enough on plane-out

ok thanks, I see what you mean, this could be what it is then. I do know that I am consciously trying to not flare too high, plus I know I am pulling the toggles all the way to the bottom before I touch down, but the time between this for me is only a second or two. Thinking about it now I'm probably to some extent lining up the final last 1/4 of the toggle movement with the touch down, so I guess it should be just a little earlier? Should I be experiencing some kind of final few seconds "glide" kind of thing where the toggles are already all the way down perhaps?

oh, re stalling, I have tried a very slow and long extension of the toggles and it doesn't seem to stall, but I admit I haven't tried it faster.
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Should I be experiencing some kind of final few seconds "glide" kind of thing where the toggles are already all the way down perhaps?


Yes, we call it the plane-out. And when the speed bleeds off to zero is when your feet should be touching down.

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oh, re stalling, I have tried a very slow and long extension of the toggles and it doesn't seem to stall, but I admit I haven't tried it faster.


This is a good thing for students in that you can't stall it on landing. Pull speed is not the issue on the stall part at this time. What is important is, on your student canopy, brake line trim.

It's good, for now, that you can't stall with toggles but at the same time you want to get as much braking power as you can get. Have a rigger check line trim or have someone experienced to fly the canopy to check brake line length so that you can get that max braking with no-stall capability...there's a somewhat fine line there for brake line length.

Good luck!
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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- zero horizontal speed and lightly just walk onto ground (which I kind of doubt in no wind)



This one.

It sounds like you aren't finishing your flare and/or you are putting your feet down too early. Definitely get some video and debrief, but better yet, get thee to a canopy course ASAP.

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Many new jumpers flare as hard and fast as they can all in one motion. They don't realize that you get best results by letting the canopy plane-out with a partial flare (the amount of brakes that requires will vary), let it fly like that for just a tiny bit, then continuing the level flight by slowly applying more brakes which will slow your forward speed. Anyway, that is my description, others will put it differently.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Most common problems - not finishing the flare and putting your feet down too soon. The one actaully leads into the other, because it's also common for people to stop 'flying' the canopy as soon as their feet touch the ground. If you have to run a few steps, keep 'flying' and the canopy will support some of your weight, and smooth the transition from canopy to ground.

The other common problem is that jumpers insist they don't do any of the above. This is where video comes into play, and you can see what you're 'really' doing, and not what you 'think' you're doing.

As far as the speed of landing on a no wind day, the canopy needs some forward speed in order to remain pressurized. Some canopies can fly straight down or even backwards, but the vast majority of sport canopies need some forward speed or they will stall.

Keep in mind that this is airspeed, not groundspeed. The reason you can kite a canopy on a wind day is becasue you have airspeed. The wind passing over the canopy makes the canopy 'fly' even though the canopy isn't moving across the ground.

So on a no wind day, the slowest you can land will be just above the stall speed. Let's say the stall speed is 10 mph, that means you can land your canopy with an 11mph groundspeed. It's just above stall speed, and you have no wind to effect a difference between the airspeed and the groundspeed.

Now if you're landing into the wind, and you have an 11mph, that wind will counter the airspeed, and you can land your canopy with zero groundspeed. When landing into the wind, your groundspeed = airspeed - wind speed.

Turn the wind around, and it adds to your groundspeed, so the 11 mph wind plus the 11 mph airspeed gives you a 22 mph groundspeed. When landing downwind your groundspeed = airspeed = wind speed.

Back to the top of the page, you can lower the stall speed of your canopy by lowering the WL. The way you lower the WL is by getting your feet on the ground and still flying the canopy. In this way, you can get the canopy to support some of your weight slower then the stall speed.

In short, flare all the way, keep your feet up until the canopy won't carry you anymore, and then keep flying the canopy while you put your feet down and start runnuing/walking, and get video.

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Not expecting a precise answer, but more at the level of:
- zero horizontal speed and lightly just walk onto ground (which I kind of doubt in no wind)



It depends on technique.

I can park my Samurai 105 loaded at 1.8 pounds per square foot in the middle of the pea gravel on a summer day at 5000 feet above sea level (8000+ foot density altitude) with a couple steps. That takes bleeding off speed for a while sinking a bit below standing height and adding a little toggle more abruptly to pop back up and slow down before lift runs out.

Many (if not most) people put their feet down before the canopy is done flying and/or settle for the speed that's left over when the canopy is flying fairly flat. That approach becomes less tolerable as wing loading and density altitude go up and a head wind becomes no wind and then a tail wind.

Assuming you can manage decent accuracy for one jump, you can plane-out and aim to end in the pea gravel (if you don't stand up the landing the cushion will be nice) and keep flying with your feet off the ground until the canopy drops.

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thanks for the great advice guys

oh, one other related question I was wondering - I'm getting the impression that on no wind days I might perhaps have to start the flare a little higher. Do you need to start a little higher on a no wind day?
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thanks for the great advice guys

oh, one other related question I was wondering - I'm getting the impression that on no wind days I might perhaps have to start the flare a little higher. Do you need to start a little higher on a no wind day?



How would your canopy know the difference? ;)
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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oh, one other related question I was wondering - I'm getting the impression that on no wind days I might perhaps have to start the flare a little higher. Do you need to start a little higher on a no wind day?



Because it does not take so much of a flare to plane-out the canopy (no vertical speed), the flare can be done later, and not as deep. Finishing the flare after the plane out is what reduces the horiz speed, and that takes longer than just getting to no vertical speed.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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in reply to "Turn the wind around, and it adds to your groundspeed, so the 11 mph wind plus the 11 mph airspeed gives you a 22 mph groundspeed. When landing downwind your groundspeed = airspeed = wind speed. "
..............................


Just a slip of the shift key ;)

When landing/flying downwind your groundspeed = airspeed + wind speed.

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Because it does not take so much of a flare to plane-out the canopy (no vertical speed), the flare can be done later, and not as deep.

ok...so this does align with the perception I was getting re might have to flare earlier for no wind landing no? Or is it best to forget about this even if it is the case, flare at the same height each time for consistency, and if you happen to have a higher wind day and don't need as much toggle input, then there's no real negative?
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Because it does not take so much of a flare to plane-out the canopy (no vertical speed), the flare can be done later, and not as deep.

ok...so this does align with the perception I was getting re might have to flare earlier for no wind landing no? Or is it best to forget about this even if it is the case, flare at the same height each time for consistency, and if you happen to have a higher wind day and don't need as much toggle input, then there's no real negative?



Your canopy does not know how far off the ground it is, or how fast the wind is blowing, or in what direction.

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>ok...so this does align with the perception I was getting re might have to
>flare earlier for no wind landing no?

Key word in there - "perception."

Our eyes are not great altimeters. One way they judge distance is speed; things far away move slowly and things close to you move quickly. So if you see something moving quickly you assume it's closer.

During landing this creates problems. On no wind days the ground seems to be moving faster (actually _is_ moving faster relative to you) and so it seems like you are lower - so you tend to flare higher.

At this point in your career all your flares should be about the same, calculated to get the canopy to just about stall when your feet touch the ground. It takes some time to get that timing right - you almost have to force yourself to flare _later_ when landing in no wind to counteract your innate desire to flare sooner.

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