Acceptable Fatalities

[jacketsdb23 45]

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Risk to reward ratio.

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Yep. I would suggest that swooping has provided little if any benefit to the bottom line. They need to protect their business and restricting big turns and taking away the attraction of the pond is probably an easy decision based on the last 18 months.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[ufk22 32]

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Thats a slippery slope (much as I hate that term) - I have already encountered a DZ that banned CRW due to a double fatality a couple of years ago. Where do you draw the line?

Blood makes everything slippery.

The line is drawn by the DZO whose legal butt is on that line. S/he may allow/encourage/discourage/prohibit whatever s/he sees fit. That is how private enterprise works.

Perris led the way as one of the early proponents of swooping as organized activity and competition. It is now leading the way away from it. Many DZs followed its initial lead; hopefully at least as many will follow it now.

The owners and managers of Perris are among the world's most experienced and long-running operators, and their decision was not made rashly. That they chose to make the decision they did should serve as a big flashing warning light to everyone else.

44

Yes, but DZO's will never ban tandems, regardless of how many accidents/fatalities there are.

Risk to reward ratio.

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Haven't noticed many tandems dying under good canopies....

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Marisan 0]

Quote:In this case, by jumping a grossly overloaded reserve canopy, the decedent had a baseline of one Fatality Factor already built into every jump he made -- so he had one less FThe reserve is a LIFESAVING EMERGENCY DEVICE, not a fashion accessory, but still people persist in jumping reserves so small that they can twist up into an unrecoverable spin -- or they will die if they can't fly it properly.F to add before he hit the death zone. Unquote:

Who the fcuk is making these things and who the fcuk is selling them.
And who the fcuk is going to take responsibility for this fatality? (Don't say the jumper either because some one made it and sold it to him)

Highly loaded reserves: What the fcuk are you people thinking about. Who thought THAT was a good idea?

[robinheid 0]

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Quote:In this case, by jumping a grossly overloaded reserve canopy, the decedent had a baseline of one Fatality Factor already built into every jump he made -- so he had one less FThe reserve is a LIFESAVING EMERGENCY DEVICE, not a fashion accessory, but still people persist in jumping reserves so small that they can twist up into an unrecoverable spin -- or they will die if they can't fly it properly.F to add before he hit the death zone. Unquote:

Who the fcuk is making these things and who the fcuk is selling them.
And who the fcuk is going to take responsibility for this fatality? (Don't say the jumper either because some one made it and sold it to him)

Highly loaded reserves: What the fcuk are you people thinking about. Who thought THAT was a good idea?

"Who the **** is making these things and who the **** is selling them."

Nothing wrong with selling a small reserve -- to a small person. In fact, as Roger Nelson proved when he switched his students to Sabre 170s (and thus much smaller rigs), smaller people definitely benefit from rigs that are proportional to their size.

What's psychotically silly is that most of the people putting highly overloaded reserves into their containers would never even consider BASE jumping, and have no idea what goes into creating reliable one-parachute systems, yet there they are making essentially one-parachute jumps with gear that's not designed for that.

"Good idea" is not the driving concept here; "cool" is the concept. So until we start ridiculing the gods for their de facto one-parachute systems, until we make it clear that it's not cool but idiotic to jump an emergency lifesaving device that will probably kill you if you have to actually use it, people will keep doing it because cool trumps good idea.

44

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Quote:In this case, by jumping a grossly overloaded reserve canopy, the decedent had a baseline of one Fatality Factor already built into every jump he made -- so he had one less FThe reserve is a LIFESAVING EMERGENCY DEVICE, not a fashion accessory, but still people persist in jumping reserves so small that they can twist up into an unrecoverable spin -- or they will die if they can't fly it properly.F to add before he hit the death zone. Unquote:

Who the fcuk is making these things and who the fcuk is selling them.
And who the fcuk is going to take responsibility for this fatality? (Don't say the jumper either because some one made it and sold it to him)

Highly loaded reserves: What the fcuk are you people thinking about. Who thought THAT was a good idea?

Why the witch-hunt against manufacturers?

We are all responsible for our choices as experienced skydivers, including the gear we chose to save our life.

[obelixtim 100]

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Quote:In this case, by jumping a grossly overloaded reserve canopy, the decedent had a baseline of one Fatality Factor already built into every jump he made -- so he had one less FThe reserve is a LIFESAVING EMERGENCY DEVICE, not a fashion accessory, but still people persist in jumping reserves so small that they can twist up into an unrecoverable spin -- or they will die if they can't fly it properly.F to add before he hit the death zone. Unquote:

Who the fcuk is making these things and who the fcuk is selling them.
And who the fcuk is going to take responsibility for this fatality? (Don't say the jumper either because some one made it and sold it to him)

Highly loaded reserves: What the fcuk are you people thinking about. Who thought THAT was a good idea?

Why the witch-hunt against manufacturers?

We are all responsible for our choices as experienced skydivers, including the gear we chose to save our life.

I think he is saying if the product didn´t exist, the demand wouldn´t be there.

Its called logic.....something that doesn´t always exist either.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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I think he is saying if the product didn´t exist, the demand wouldn´t be there.

Its called logic.....something that doesn´t always exist either.

So if there weren't any small reserves, nobody would wamt a smaller one?

Nobody would be asking the manufacturers to make one a size (or two) smaller?

Very light/small people would be stuck under reserves loaded well below 1:1?

There are times and places that smaller reserves are appropriate.

Unfortunately, that means that they are available for situations where they are clearly not appropriate.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Marisan 0]

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I think he is saying if the product didn´t exist, the demand wouldn´t be there.

Its called logic.....something that doesn´t always exist either.

So if there weren't any small reserves, nobody would wamt a smaller one?

Nobody would be asking the manufacturers to make one a size (or two) smaller?

Very light/small people would be stuck under reserves loaded well below 1:1?

There are times and places that smaller reserves are appropriate.

An honest question.
When would a smaller reserve appropriate?

And when would a larger reserve be inappropriate?

[DaVinciflies 0]

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I think he is saying if the product didn´t exist, the demand wouldn´t be there.

Its called logic.....something that doesn´t always exist either.

That is quite simply naive. Business exists to create and satisfy the needs of the consumer.

Just because a product doesn't exist does NOT mean there is no demand for it. What if I could make a 200bhp engine that also delivered 200mpg? Don't you think that I should have the right to develop it? It is called a free market economy. Nobody forces consumers to buy anything (except the government with respect to things like insurance or emissions testing).

Just because PD makes a 99 sq ft reserve IN NO WAY compels anyone to buy and jump one. That's fucking bullshit and the world needs to be a little more personally responsible and a little less willing to blame anyone else for accidents and poor decision making on the part of the individual.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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I think he is saying if the product didn´t exist, the demand wouldn´t be there.

Its called logic.....something that doesn´t always exist either.

That is quite simply naive. Business exists to create and satisfy the needs of the consumer.

Just because a product doesn't exist does NOT mean there is no demand for it. What if I could make a 200bhp engine that also delivered 200mpg? Don't you think that I should have the right to develop it? It is called a free market economy. Nobody forces consumers to buy anything (except the government with respect to things like insurance or emissions testing).

Just because PD makes a 99 sq ft reserve IN NO WAY compels anyone to buy and jump one. That's fucking bullshit and the world needs to be a little more personally responsible and a little less willing to blame anyone else for accidents and poor decision making on the part of the individual.

Seriously? Tell that to the cigarette company that came up with "Joe the Camel". The courts have a long standing track record for awarding large settlements against companies that mislead/misinform customers. Especially where personal saftey and health concerns are involved. Something to think about??

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[billvon 2,400]

>When would a smaller reserve appropriate?

For smaller people.

>And when would a larger reserve be inappropriate?

When it made the rig unsafe because a large reserve would result in an unsafely loose main closing loop. Some manufacturers do not offer large reserve/small main container combinations, and thus someone jumping a tiny Katana might not be able to get a rig that worked with a large reserve.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Seriously? Tell that to the cigarette company that came up with "Joe the Camel". The courts have a long standing track record for awarding large settlements against companies that mislead/misinform customers. Especially where personal saftey and health concerns are involved. Something to think about??

So how exactly are the canopy manufacturers misleading customers?

PD recommend a Max Exit Wt of 149 lbs for an Expert jumper jumping a PDR 99. An expert jumper should be able to handle a reserve loading of 1.5 with now issues. If they can't then they are not expert.

You're one of those who are trying to remove personal responsibility from life and I disagree with this in the strongest terms.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Seriously? Tell that to the cigarette company that came up with "Joe the Camel". The courts have a long standing track record for awarding large settlements against companies that mislead/misinform customers. Especially where personal saftey and health concerns are involved. Something to think about??

So how exactly are the canopy manufacturers misleading customers?

PD recommend a Max Exit Wt of 149 lbs for an Expert jumper jumping a PDR 99. An expert jumper should be able to handle a reserve loading of 1.5 with now issues. If they can't then they are not expert.

You're one of those who are trying to remove personal responsibility from life and I disagree with this in the strongest terms.

You misunderstand my post. I'm a strong advocate of personal responsibility!! Rarely do I make "good" decisions... ask anyone who knows me.
The point of my previous post is that large companies with deep pockets need to be very careful about how they do business. I make no accusations or implications toward any manufacturer or business, especially PD who I’ve personally found to be a great company.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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>When would a smaller reserve appropriate?

For smaller people.

>And when would a larger reserve be inappropriate?

When it made the rig unsafe because a large reserve would result in an unsafely loose main closing loop. Some manufacturers do not offer large reserve/small main container combinations, and thus someone jumping a tiny Katana might not be able to get a rig that worked with a large reserve.

Safety should come before brand loyalty.

Where UPT or Sunpath won't make some one a container mixing a fun-sized main and safe-sized reserve they should take their business to Sunrise, Mirage, Jump Shack, or some one else that will do the deed.

[billvon 2,400]

>Where UPT or Sunpath won't make some one a container mixing a
>fun-sized main and safe-sized reserve they should take their business to
>Sunrise, Mirage, Jump Shack, or some one else that will do the deed.

I agree - but not everyone can afford a new rig of their choice, especially newer jumpers.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Safety should come before brand loyalty.

Where UPT or Sunpath won't make some one a container mixing a fun-sized main and safe-sized reserve they should take their business to Sunrise, Mirage, Jump Shack, or some one else that will do the deed.

If a person can safely jump a main of x sq ft, they should be totally fine under a 7-cell square reserve if x or more sq ft. If not, the main is TOO FUCKING SMALL. This is not the fault of anyone but the jumper (except very new guys who get bad advice from others).

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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>Where UPT or Sunpath won't make some one a container mixing a
>fun-sized main and safe-sized reserve they should take their business to
>Sunrise, Mirage, Jump Shack, or some one else that will do the deed.

I agree - but not everyone can afford a new rig of their choice, especially newer jumpers.

It's not a problem for newer jumpers who've yet to progress to mains where a like sized reserve does not make sense, and once some one gets to 1000 jumps they'd do well to put more mileage on their current canopy and put off down-sizing until they can afford a safe sized rig.

PD gives 1.4 pounds/square foot as the recommended "expert" wingloading on their reserves the way they measure; or about 1.3 pounds/square foot the way other people do.

That puts an average 175-180 pound guy with 20-25 pounds of gear with a 200 pound exit weight under a 150 (or 143 measured the way PD does) with a 150/150 container as the last where matching sizes makes sense.

Most containers with the closing loop on the reserve compartment wall or main pack tray bottom seem to be good for about two down-sizes. Starting with a 150 that gets you to a 120 with a 1.7 pound/square foot wingloading where the next down-size would be to a 105-109 square foot conventional canopy loaded at 1.8-1.9 pounds per square foot. Disregarding Brian Germain's adjustments for small canopies and density elevations beyond sea level that doesn't make sense until a jumper has 800-900 jumps which we can round up to 1000 as the point where they should have a bigger reserve container to go with a smaller main container.

This disregards low-bulk reserves where matching container sizes allow for a reserve one size bigger and cross-bracing.

[hokierower 0]

Does the entire container system (i.e. Vector 3) fall under the same TSO or does each container size (V314 vs. V316) require it's own TSO rating? Wouldn't this prevent someone from calling up UPT and asking for a main tray capable of holding a 120 but a reserve tray capable of holding a 170?

My relative short time in sport might show here, but how is jumping different than riding a motorcycle in the given context (i.e. acceptable fatalities). Any Joe can walk into a motorcycle dealership and walk out with a 600/1,000 CC supersport and 15 seconds later be plastered across the median. The motorcycle community as a whole is much larger than skydiving but from 1994-2010 there have been on average 3400 deaths every year, yet large volume engines aren't outlawed or restricted yet? Those manufacturers aren't held responsible for what the idiot on the oversized bike did...why are the skydiving manufacturers different? Is it because this is a smaller sport with fewer individuals?

As said above, I'm a newer jumper and I realize that there are many things that I do not know, but why does everyone jump straight to MORE regulation when someone augers in? The sport is inherently dangerous, as is riding a motorcycle, but you don't see sales of those dropping because someone got cleaned up on the side of the road.

Marisan...what is all this "you guys" shit that you keep throwing out? You used to jump but no longer do? So do you consider yourself a jumper or are you merely on the outside looking in now, only you have nothing better to do than spout doom and gloom and threaten that if we don't make the sport the equivalent to watching TV on the couch it will no longer exist? You seem to like to speak but never offer a solution.

[DSE 3]

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My relative short time in sport might show here, but how is jumping different than riding a motorcycle in the given context (i.e. acceptable fatalities). Any Joe can walk into a motorcycle dealership and walk out with a 600/1,000 CC supersport and 15 seconds later be plastered across the median. The motorcycle community as a whole is much larger than skydiving but from 1994-2010 there have been on average 3400 deaths every year, yet large volume engines aren't outlawed or restricted yet? Those manufacturers aren't held responsible for what the idiot on the oversized bike did...why are the skydiving manufacturers different? Is it because this is a smaller sport with fewer individuals?

Unlike motorcycles, state laws do not require no-fault insurance for skydiving (most states require proof of insurance to register a motorcycle). Insurance costs act as a form of regulation (higher costs for bigger motors), but like skydiving...anyone with the $$ can get their hands on anything, regardless if it's appropriate for their skill level, experience, wisdom (or not).

[mjosparky 3]

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The courts have a long standing track record for awarding large settlements against companies that mislead/misinform customers.

It is not a “long standing track record”. It has been in the last 20 to 30 years that claims against cigarette companies would make it to trial.

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If a person can safely jump a main of x sq ft, they should be totally fine under a 7-cell square reserve if x or more sq ft. If not, the main is TOO FUCKING SMALL. This is not the fault of anyone but the jumper (except very new guys who get bad advice from others).

I think that is the point of some of the discussion going on here. Today you have jumpers with several thousand jumps who have never jumped a 7 cell LoPo canopy. You are comparing apples with oranges.

And sadly way too many new guys get bad advice for other jumpers who are trying to sell their old gear so they and down size to a canopy they can’t handle.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

>It's not a problem for newer jumpers who've yet to progress to mains
>where a like sized reserve does not make sense . . .

I agree. But they're not the problem; the primary problem (IMO) is the 200 jump wonder on the Katana 120 who has to get a PD126R to fit his tiny container. Their thinking is often thus:

"Wow, that's a good deal on that Micron with the Katana. What's the biggest reserve it will take? A 126? That should be fine; it will probably be a while before I need it anyway."

[billvon 2,400]

>An expert jumper should be able to handle a reserve loading of 1.5 with now issues.

If he has experience landing that reserve. If he jumps a Micro Raven 120 at that loading, and is used to landing ZP canopies, he's probably going to break his leg - even if he's a good swooper under his fully elliptical main.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Safety should come before brand loyalty.

Where UPT or Sunpath won't make some one a container mixing a fun-sized main and safe-sized reserve they should take their business to Sunrise, Mirage, Jump Shack, or some one else that will do the deed.

If a person can safely jump a main of x sq ft, they should be totally fine under a 7-cell square reserve if x or more sq ft.

Hardly.

1. The pilot may be in substantially worse shape when landing the reserve than his main. With an AAD the parachutist needn't even be conscious. Obviously landing without flaring is likely to produce fewer injuries under a bigger canopy.

2. More modern non-rectangular designs provide acceptable stall speeds at _substantially_ higher wing loadings than squares in particular and seven cell reserves specifically.

For instance, although PD recommends "expert" skydivers not exceed 1.8 pounds/square foot under their Katana they limit "experts" to just 1.4 pounds per square foot (or 1.3 PSF how other companies measure).

That's in-line with the wing loadings where I've experienced noticeably degraded performance similar canopies at high elevations (I used to jump at Mile Hi, which is about 5280 feet above sea level with density altitude exceeding 9000 feet on hot summer days).

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If not, the main is TOO FUCKING SMALL. This is not the fault of anyone but the jumper (except very new guys who get bad advice from others).

While I agree that people shouldn't jump parachutes loaded more than 1.3 pounds per square foot (that seems to be where parachute grow "teeth" at high density altitudes), lots of us feel the added fun from smaller mains is worth the increased risk.

Doing that within (or slightly beyond) the manufacturer's recommendations when you're current and everything is going well should be totally separate from deciding to far exceed the manufacturer's recommendations when you may or may not be current (it's a lot easier to swap a larger main in a rig than a bigger reserve), may or may not be physically impaired, and won't be gaining as much (a smaller, sexier rig versus more fun on every jump) in return.

[mjosparky 3]

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PD gives 1.4 pounds/square foot as the recommended "expert" wingloading on their reserves the way they measure; or about 1.3 pounds/square foot the way other people do.

Do you have a link to this?

“You should also be aware that the maximum limit for a reserve canopy is, in fact, a legal limit based on FAA certification requirements.”

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[obelixtim 100]

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Marisan...what is all this "you guys" shit that you keep throwing out? You used to jump but no longer do? So do you consider yourself a jumper or are you merely on the outside looking in now, only you have nothing better to do than spout doom and gloom and threaten that if we don't make the sport the equivalent to watching TV on the couch it will no longer exist? You seem to like to speak but never offer a solution.

I think Marisan is doing an excellent job playing the devils advocate, and his message has been consistent. Whether or not he still jumps is irrelevant if his message keeps discussion and awareness of the problem to the fore.

As for doom and gloom, I don´t think what he is warning of (possible consequences), is as doomy and gloomy as what you will find at quite a few funeral parlours and rehab centres for the many dead and crippled jumpers who should still be part of the jumping community, but no longer are.

For whatever reason, death and injury at the rate we are seeing under perfectly functioning canopies is quite simply, not acceptable.....has been going on for far too long, and needs to be corrected....

Thanks to the Marisans of the world, the problems are finally being addressed....albeit slowly.

This is an improvement on the last 20 years of hoping the problem would simply go away.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....