Cypress SAVE

[billvon 2,463]

>But what about the RSL? Tell them during the FJC, or wait until after their 1st jump?

During their first jump. I demonstrate how it works, and I also demonstrate how easy it is for it to become disconnected accidentally. That way they know that if one riser releases and the other one doesn't, their reserve may appear without pulling the reserve handle. I figure it also helps prevent reliance by demonstrating its unreliability.

[NickDG 23]

I always do the FJC without mentioning the AAD or the RSL until we are all done and they've taken the written test. Then I say, "Look, one more thing. There are two back-up devices on this rig."

I take a minute or two to explain them and then instruct them to go about things like those two things aren't there and do what I've taught them to do. It's a little bit of a confidence boost for some students, and it's a shame not to use it. You just have to really be careful how you explain it.

For instance you don’t want to say, "No worries, if you don't pull the reserve handle, there's this thing." And yes, I've heard exactly that from Instructors who's classes I've sat in on.

Of course, that's before I take them behind the hangar and counsel them.

Also, one issue Instructors should ignore is the one that goes, "Oh well, most likely they'll only make one jump." Gee, the worst kind of malfunction you can imagine can happen to them on that one jump. So don’t picture it as "their" one jump, picture it like the 5000th first jump student you've taught. They aren’t playing the odds, you are!

Another problem is with a student's continued education. Sure they get refresher training in the hanging harness prior to every AFF jump (or at least I hope like hell they do) along with the new dive flow, but there is a disconnect between what they learned in the FJC and what needs to be amplified and expanded on as they progress. It's kind of a hodgepodge system now and we really have to fix that . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Ron 7]

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>Tell me one thing that NOT telling a FJC student about an AAD will cause a problem.

A low pull may result in two-out, which is a situation they must know how to deal with.

That is already covered under "Malfunctions"....Next!

They don't need to know that a low pull might fire the AAD. They need to know the pull altitude for the dive and the hard deck.

I think students get so much info crammed onto them in the FJC that they grab onto what they deam important.

Just as a student does not need to know about a freebag, they don't need to know about an RSL or AAD. Rules require we tell them about them....But I can tell you that no matter how lightly you mention it they latch onto that little bit of info and own it.

"Oh, so if I screw up, it will open?" Thats all they take from it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[RayLosli 11]

Man this is getting beat to death but I cant help myself.
>
>
livendive:
..." teaching the cutaway-pull reserve procedure should make it moot."
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Should make all else Moot.
Buddy that about say's it all right there. I don't understand what everyone is arguing about ?
It does not mater what safety back-up a student has in there Rig. an AAD. RSL or whatever else that person THOUGHT they had to save there life.
I don't know what everyone else remembers about what they were taught in very beginning but It's always Cut & Pull. (maybe things have changed ???)
As a student I was taught to Quickly assess your situation and cut & pull / 1-2 cut & pull / right and left. cut and pull. over & over & over.
Apparently it was the Trainers that may NOT have drilled that into the person before turning them over to themselves. The person was cleared, cut loss to go out in the air. Right ?
So it seems to me that it's 50-50. - Instructors and Student both - that are at fault. So each should take an ass-chewing equally.
BUT if they did there job of instruction. Then that person should go back into the hanging harness and drill for a couple hours on EP's.
Because apparently it's harder than it sounds. Cut & Pull.
Fact is also: that if your AAD fires and your basically not Unconscious. Your Grounded. becouse guess what ? your not altitude aware.
just my .02 cents.
.

[billvon 2,463]

>They don't need to know that a low pull might fire the AAD.

I disagree. Students pull low too sometimes; indeed, they are more likely than experienced jumpers to lose track of altitude. They should know what might happen, so they can be better prepared to deal with it.

[IanHarrop 37]

I agree.

I cannot in my wildest dreams believe that someone with >100 jumps did not know to cutaway and then pull the reserve. I've read this thread and unlike some people who want to cut her some slack, I don't.

She froze and didn't do her EPs. She knew them but didn't do them.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Hooknswoop 19]

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She froze and didn't do her EPs. She knew them but didn't do them.

What, exactly, did she know?

Derek

[IanHarrop 37]

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I cannot in my wildest dreams believe that someone with >100 jumps did not know to cutaway and then pull the reserve.

She had two handles. Anyone with >100 jumps understands to pull both of them.

The excuse about waiting for the RSL is BS. I don't buy it.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Hooknswoop 19]

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She had two handles. Anyone with >100 jumps understands to pull both of them.

The excuse about waiting for the RSL is BS. I don't buy it.

That is because you are seeing it from your perspective. Listen to how the Instructors on here are talking about how to teach AAD's/RSL's. It is difficult to teach because of the potential for misunderstanding. It is very easy for a student to come away from a FJC with the uderstanding allt hey have to do is cutaway and the RSL will activate the reserve and still understand what the reserve handle does. 100 jumps doesn't mean anything. People tnd to revert back to their initial training in an emergency situation. If you don't buy it, teach some FJC's and then have the students explain everything back to you. You'll be amazed at how much you didn't get across. It gets easier as you begin to teach from their perspective (0 skydives) and not from your perspective.

Derek

[IanHarrop 37]

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She had two handles. Anyone with >100 jumps understands to pull both of them.

The excuse about waiting for the RSL is BS. I don't buy it.

That is because you are seeing it from your perspective. Listen to how the Instructors on here are talking about how to teach AAD's/RSL's. It is difficult to teach because of the potential for misunderstanding. It is very easy for a student to come away from a FJC with the uderstanding allt hey have to do is cutaway and the RSL will activate the reserve and still understand what the reserve handle does. 100 jumps doesn't mean anything. People tnd to revert back to their initial training in an emergency situation. If you don't buy it, teach some FJC's and then have the students explain everything back to you. You'll be amazed at how much you didn't get across. It gets easier as you begin to teach from their perspective (0 skydives) and not from your perspective.

Derek

Sorry, we're going to have to disagree on this one. I do not believe that anyone with >100 jumps knows to pull both handles. Yes this is my perspective. Blaming the FJC has developed in this thread to offer an excuse for someone's statement that they were waiting for the RSL. I believe that the person is covering up the fact that they froze. It an alternative that has just as much viability as the blaming the FJC.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[billvon 2,463]

>>Anyone with >100 jumps understands to pull both of them.

We have had people on this very board who have asked, in reference to the Skyhook, "what's the big deal? It just means you don't have to pull the reserve handle, right?"

95% of the people out there know to pull both handles. That other 5% are the ones that end up in the Incidents reports.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Sorry, we're going to have to disagree on this one. I do not believe that anyone with >100 jumps knows to pull both handles. Yes this is my perspective. Blaming the FJC has developed in this thread to offer an excuse for someone's statement that they were waiting for the RSL. I believe that the person is covering up the fact that they froze. It an alternative that has just as much viability as the blaming the FJC.

Fair enough, but I am not blaming the FJC or their Instructor. I am trying to explain how a student can come away from a good FJC with the wrong idea.

We all know to come in on our final approach in full flight and flare from there. then how did I get the idea I should come in in half brakes on final and flare from there on my fisrt skydive? I took something the Instructor said out of context, didn't know any better, it seemd to make sense to me, so I ran with it.

If this jumper misunderstood or simplified their training down to cutaway and the RSL will handle the rest, they didn't freeze, they went with what they thought their initial training was.

How can you explain the GK that was tracking for water after cutting away from a wrap and their Cypres fired? They didn't freeze, they were in fact doing everything they thought possible to survive.

Try teaching a FJC and get an AFFI to quiz the student afterwars. You will be amazed at what they learned vs. what you taught.

Derek

[ACMESkydiver 0]

My point was this: When we were shown our gear, it was hard NOT to notice this electronic thing-y in the rig. "What's that?" is a natural question. If my instructors had side-stepped answering 'what's that' on my first jump, I would have declined to jump.

Avoiding the question about life-saving gear to me would indicate a safety issue that was not being detailed. Under those circumstances, I would NOT have jumped at that DZ.

If I am the atypical FJC student, then by all means, don't mention it...but detailed people want to see what the heck they're jumping. I am a detail-oriented person, and have a LOT to lose should something happen to me. I consider anything I do in the air as a calculated risk, as do we all, and I want to know all of the factors that go into that risk assessment.

Now then, if the beer-swizzling college frat boy out for a good time doesn't give a rat's hind end, that's a different situation...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[IanHarrop 37]

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Try teaching a FJC and get an AFFI to quiz the student afterwars. You will be amazed at what they learned vs. what you taught.

But this person was not fresh off a FJC. They had more than 100 jumps. Sorry, just can't agree.

My theory that they are covering for freezing has just as much creditbility.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Hooknswoop 19]

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But this person was not fresh off a FJC. They had more than 100 jumps. Sorry, just can't agree.

Right, but how much EP training did she recieve after her FJC?

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My theory that they are covering for freezing has just as much creditbility.

Absolutely it does. My only point is this incident highlights possible issues in training. If she simply didn't listen, didn't care, etc, then it had nothing to do with training. If she simply froze, then it had nothing to do with training. I don't think she froze, since she did cutaway and was waiting on the RSL. This means that she was aware of the problem and did take action and was aware of the RSL. If she had froze, I don't think she would have pulled the cutaway handle. It appears to me that she misunderstood the function of the RSL and how it should (or really, shouldn't) affect her EP's.

Derek

[IanHarrop 37]

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But this person was not fresh off a FJC. They had more than 100 jumps. Sorry, just can't agree.

Right, but how much EP training did she recieve after her FJC?

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My theory that they are covering for freezing has just as much creditbility.

Absolutely it does. My only point is this incident highlights possible issues in training. If she simply didn't listen, didn't care, etc, then it had nothing to do with training. If she simply froze, then it had nothing to do with training. I don't think she froze, since she did cutaway and was waiting on the RSL. This means that she was aware of the problem and did take action and was aware of the RSL. If she had froze, I don't think she would have pulled the cutaway handle. It appears to me that she misunderstood the function of the RSL and how it should (or really, shouldn't) affect her EP's.

Derek

We'll never know who is right.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[lowie 0]

Either this lass has far bigger cajones than I have or she froze. How the hell could you burn on down to 700-800ft and do nothing? I've never come even close to that but I'm sure those that have will testify that the ground rush must be massive.

I think some honesty on her part is required here.

[goose491 0]

I suspect that she had the presence of mind to cutaway and that she expected the reserve to deploy as a result. When it didn't (because she was cutting away a total), it was enough of a shock to instill a panic freeze and that's why she didn't pull her silver handle.

We have to stop discussing the possibility that any responsibility lies with the way her FJC was conducted. Okay, so original poster says -Hard Pull, -Second Attempt, -Cutaway.... so if she didn't try more then twice, she had that part right... How the hell did she get to Cypres Firing land before realizing that her reserve wasn't coming out all on it's own? If she was waiting on the RSL, she could not have been waiting for more then a second... otherwise, she'd be expecting that RSL to be several hundred feet long no?

No, it make far more sense to me to say she had good focus right up until the part where she cutaway and had no reserve. At which point she froze.

IMHO, it is impossible that she wasn't aware pulling the silver handle would have ended the skydive... yet she didn't. What does that tell us?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Either this lass has far bigger cajones than I have or she froze. How the hell could you burn on down to 700-800ft and do nothing?

She didn't do nothing, she pulled her cutaway handle and expected the RSL to activate her reserve.

Derek

[Ron 7]

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I disagree. Students pull low too sometimes; indeed, they are more likely than experienced jumpers to lose track of altitude. They should know what might happen, so they can be better prepared to deal with it.

They are thought how to deal with a double out. There is no way to be "better prepared". A student who went low will not remember the AAD and switch from the Main to the reserve due to that. You yourself have said that you have seen an AFF I throw a main when he was low right after he told someone esle to dump the reserve.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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We'll never know who is right.

Doesn't matter who is right, any reason that could have caused this incident should be looked at and adressed in an effort to prevent the same thing from ahppening again for any reason.

Derek

[Ron 7]

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My point was this: When we were shown our gear, it was hard NOT to notice this electronic thing-y in the rig. "What's that?" is a natural question. If my instructors had side-stepped answering 'what's that' on my first jump, I would have declined to jump.

Avoiding the question about life-saving gear to me would indicate a safety issue that was not being detailed. Under those circumstances, I would NOT have jumped at that DZ.

It seems to me that you didn't understand every piece of your equipment from your FJC. I know I didn't.

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If I am the atypical FJC student, then by all means, don't mention it...but detailed people want to see what the heck they're jumping. I am a detail-oriented person, and have a LOT to lose should something happen to me. I consider anything I do in the air as a calculated risk, as do we all, and I want to know all of the factors that go into that risk assessment.

would you have jumped if there was no AAD?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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We have to stop discussing the possibility that any responsibility lies with the way her FJC was conducted.

Why? It is possible and if a change could be made to prevent it from ahppening again, why not address that? A student can come away with a misunderstanding from the world's best FJC. You don't have to be a poor Instructor to have a student misunderstand you.

Derek

[goose491 0]

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Either this lass has far bigger cajones than I have or she froze. How the hell could you burn on down to 700-800ft and do nothing?

She didn't do nothing, she pulled her cutaway handle and expected the RSL to activate her reserve.

It's not that I don't understand your point Derek... but she cutaway and waited a very long time for the RSL. If she cutaway and expected her RSL to do the trick, what was she thinking after a second or two had passed?

Also, for your theory (that responsibility lies within a misunderstanding about her RSL, learned during the FJC) to be sound, it must also mean that she had no idea her reserve handle worked to deploy a reserve.... because she didn't pull it.

For her to think: "All I need to do in an emergency is pull the cutaway and presto, all is taken care of, and that's just the way all skydivers do it."... for that to be the case, she would have done all 100 of her jumps not knowing what the shinny metal handle on her left main lift web was for?

...equally irresponsible (if not worse!) if you ask me.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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For her to think: "All I need to do in an emergency is pull the cutaway and presto, all is taken care of, and that's just the way all skydivers do it."... for that to be the case, she would have done all 100 of her jumps not knowing what the shinny metal handle on her left main lift web was for?

How many times must it be said - it's quite possible that she *thought* she knew what that shiny metal handle was for, but after time (one or two years) and 100 jumps, she never had real world experience with that mal, or any other for that matter. Not every DZ has a hanging harness and a culture encouraging its use. I did a few AFF jumps at Perris - every day they'd put their students on wall mounted harnesses and practice EPs. It's a great practice that I haven't observed up north. Much better than a single session of drills at the end of the FJC.

I've never had a cutaway, so it's hard for me to judge. I believe and hope that my reactions will be proper, but until it happens, hard to insist it will.