Re: First reserve ride TERMINAL

[palejo 0]

Had my first reserve ride before last weekend. After a normal 3 way RW we broke away at 4k, tracked and clear air, wave off and went to pull to find that my freefly pud was not there. Did a second try and nothing (I felt the BOC and the webing that joint the pud to the PC so the pud was trailing in my burbble and tried but couldn't grab it). I did a quick check at my alt and saw I was going through my decision alt 2,500 then a half barell roll to make sure nothing was trailing behind me, and pulled silver. The openiing was brisk but not painful (have a TEMPO170). I was seating on the saddle by 1,700, it flew straight and had a decent stand up landing. A friend of mine, followed my PC which landed about 800' down the runway. I lost my handle.
This is my first mal and would like to share and know if someone have experienced this type of (I will call it total) mal. I heard lots of people saying the don't like the freestyle handle because they are afraid of not being able to find it if coming out of the bottom flap. Mine is a wings container and wings FF pud.

blue ones

Alejandro
B27585

[NickDG 23]

Good on you for not messing with it too long.

Free flying seems to be justifying going back to stuff known to be problematic. Things like adding a pud to a throw out (that must have Booth tearing his beard out) or using a soft pud for a reserve handle can cause problems.

I realize the things related to FF you are trying to cure, but you better be aware of the problems and be ready for them. What scares me is when you asked if this has happened to anyone else . . . There's a long list of dead people who searched too long for dislodged (pull out) puds.

It seems to me a true free fly rig is only a marketing term at this point.

Listen to Bill Booth's Skydive Radio interview as he discusses the above issues . . .

http://www.skydiveradio.com/

There's a reason old guys get old . . .

NickD BASE 194

[palejo 0]

Thanks Nick for your feedback.
The thing is that I cannot modify to hackey at this point because my rig has the open corners design (my future plans of skyflying) so if I install a monkey handle a piece of my briddle (the part that runs from BOC to bottom flap that now is covered by the soft pud when in place) won't be covered by the hackey. I know someone who has similar handle and had his rigger install a piece of velcro in the soft pud and inside the bottom flap and is working pretty good for him. Another solution I think could be to shorten the main closing loop so the flap closes tighter and that will hold better the soft pud.

Alejandro
B27585

[billvon 2,476]

>Free flying seems to be justifying going back to stuff known to be problematic.

What's odd about this is that a well-designed throwout (with a leather hackey or even a PVC pipe) isn't a problem for freeflying to begin with. I think that some of these newer designs are essentially solutions in search of a problem. I just hope we don't have a repeat of the blast handle days.

[jerry81 10]

Good call, obviously, but could you elaborate a bit on the design of your freefly handle? You say you felt the boc pouch, but couldn't grab the handle- with a pull-out (no boc), the pad can get knocked loose and if it's trailing in your burble it would be harder to reach, but with a throw-away, the handle should be right there by the mouth of the pouch. Most freefly handles I've seen are attached directly to the pilot chute, and none of the ones that are attached with webbing like hackeys or pvc handles have webbing long enough that a loose handle would be unreachable...

Still, on the matter of freefly handles- I had a similar situation on a wings rig 500 jumps ago; borrowed gear, touched the handle a few times on the ground but didn't try grabbing it and when it was time to pull, it slipped out of my hand after the pc was halfway out...as I was trying to get it again, I felt the pc slip out completely and fortunately this lead to a normal opening. And although I've probably seen about 10-15 different freefly handle designs since then (the Wings I jumped had the handle attached directly to the pc, hence my above question), ranging from retrofitted homemade pillows to handles that sit so tight it makes you wonder how the person can even pull, I still don't trust them completely...
I'd listen to Bill Booth, but the Skydive Radio site seems to be down because of excessive traffic.

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[palejo 0]

I wish I had a digital cam to post a pic of my handle design. I'll try to explain. The webing that joins the handle to the PC is about 2" long. That's the distance between the BOC mouth and the bottom flap where I tuck the hard side of the handle and that separation is due to the open corners of my container (for birdman deployment purposes). In my case when the handle came out it was floating and flapping on my burbble with all that webing stretch and I couldn't grab it even on a second try. May be if I tried a third time or just grab it by the webing I was going to be able to pull it out but I didn't what to risk it since I was going through my harddeck without a canopy. I guess that'll explain it a bit

Alejandro
B27585

[kelpdiver 2]

open question - was the barrel roll at 2500 productive or just a loss of useful altitude? If there was something trailing behind you, what would you have done differently?

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

If there was something trailing behind him he probably would have wrapped himself in it and made the problem worse.

[jerry81 10]

Thanks, that's clear enough, if slightly scary. The longest I've encountered so far was about 1" on the new Legend, but that one has a special pocket to tuck the stiffener tab into and is really tight (the velcro idea sounds good for your rig). But I suppose a rectangular handle with the webbing attached just in the middle can still get entangled with the bridle (although the bridle knotting around the pc is not a very common occurence, I've personally seen it happen on a rig with a little plush toy instead of a regular pc handle) while a freefly handle sewn directly onto the pc is a bit less likely to in similar circumstances.
And of course, floating handle can now apparently be a problem even on boc rigs...

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[kelpdiver 2]

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If there was something trailing behind him he probably would have wrapped himself in it and made the problem worse.

But what can be done about it in the 7-8 seconds before the cypres fires? That's why I asked. Is one better off trying the reserve higher to give more time should they entangle?

[Andy9o8 0]

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If there was something trailing behind him he probably would have wrapped himself in it and made the problem worse.

But what can be done about it in the 7-8 seconds before the cypres fires? That's why I asked. Is one better off trying the reserve higher to give more time should they entangle?

Yeah, I agree, the half-roll roll was a bridle wrap waiting to happen, and needlessly burned up precious altitude. Just punch that silver, man.

[Croc 0]

I have a wings with a freefly handle. Last month I was wearing gloves--the same pair that I had worn many times with my first rig (hackey handle on the PC). Anyway, on this jump I gave a good hard pull as usual and got nothing. I couldn't see anything behind me and was getting ready to try again when I check my alti and noticed I was below my hard deck.
(Wake up call--make another try RIGHT AWAY!) Just as I was looking at my handles I got stood up. My Spectre opened with line twists all the way down to my risers. Once again I considered chopping but got them untwisted. Landed safely one mile out. No gloves for me ever with that handle. Near as I can figure it slipped from my hand and was only partially pulled out. I want my hacky back!

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[mr2mk1g 10]

How are you going to be able to pull your cutaway handle if you can't pull a main deployment handle? They're almost identical in design and there's a significant risk your cutaway handle may need considerably more force to pull it.

Your decision regarding your gloves should not be limited to the use of a pud. In other words, it doesn't sound like it was the pud at fault but your choice of gloves.

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've had two reserve rides due to pull out problems, one was my lazy fault, the other was caused by the packer. Out of 3500+ pullout jumps, I don't mind too much.

One thing, if you can feel the lanyard, it's okay to pull that instead of the handle. .

Second thing, you stated that you did "half a barrel roll" to see if anything was trailing behind you.
- half a barrel roll would leave you on your back. Not the best way to deploy your reserve.
- so if you saw something trailing, what could you do about it? Besides just dump your reserve?
- with a pull out handle floating, there is not much trailing behind you. Know your gear and don't worry about trailing something.
- last but not least, when it's time to pull your reserve, don't screw around doing barrel rolls. Just pull it, please.

Might have come off harsh, hope not. I like my pull outs, but they are not for everyone.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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There's a long list of dead people who searched too long for dislodged (pull out) puds.

Is it as long as the list of dead people who entangled their reserves on towed pilot chutes?

[jerry81 10]

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How are you going to be able to pull your cutaway handle if you can't pull a main deployment handle? They're almost identical in design and there's a significant risk your cutaway handle may need considerably more force to pull it.

I disagree. First of all, designs of freefly handles vary much more than designs of cutaway pillows. If nothing else, most of them are a little shorter than your average cutaway handle. Second, I'd say you grab them differently, your hand is in a different position and you do a different move when using one than when using the other.

But the gloves you choose certainly shouldn't prevent you from doing anything you otherwise could...pulling, cutting away, using a knife, whatever.

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[mr2mk1g 10]

The Wings cutaway pad is almost identical to the Wings deployment pud and you can grab them in exactly the same way: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=19838;

If his gloves caused him to drop his pud - they can cause him to drop his cutaway pad. I wouldn't wear those gloves irrespective of what main deployment system was used.

[jerry81 10]

Well, I was thinking more in terms of different move (your wrist, your arm)-different leverage. I doubt you could grab and punch as effectively with a handle that's somewhere above your ass, unless you're triple jointed...I know I can't, but most of my joints bend merely in one additional direction.

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[palejo 0]

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open question - was the barrel roll at 2500 productive or just a loss of useful altitude? If there was something trailing behind you, what would you have done differently?

I didn't say I did a barrel roll. I did half barrel roll (torso on an angle to be able to look better over my shoulders without flipping on my back and I can do that in 1 sec. with both my arms and hands in front of me and a little bit of knee help. It is like a side sliding move when bellyflying and I call it half barrel roll because your body is rotating on a horizontal axel a little bit but is not sinking, in any case you are side sliding. I wanted to make sure my PC was not trailing behind and I didn't have to cut away. 2500 is my decision alt and 2000 is my hard deck. At 2000 or below that I will not even try doing that. I will go straight like a bullet to silver. I was on the saddle by 1700 and a little long from the landing area because of my tracking direcion at brake off was upwind and i made it back even with my Tempo sinking more that moving forward. I think, and other jumpers at my DZ that witnessed the situation think so as well, that I did a good use of my time and EP.

Alejandro
B27585

[palejo 0]

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I've had two reserve rides due to pull out problems, one was my lazy fault, the other was caused by the packer. Out of 3500+ pullout jumps, I don't mind too much.

One thing, if you can feel the lanyard, it's okay to pull that instead of the handle. .

Second thing, you stated that you did "half a barrel roll" to see if anything was trailing behind you.
- half a barrel roll would leave you on your back. Not the best way to deploy your reserve.
- so if you saw something trailing, what could you do about it? Besides just dump your reserve?
- with a pull out handle floating, there is not much trailing behind you. Know your gear and don't worry about trailing something.
- last but not least, when it's time to pull your reserve, don't screw around doing barrel rolls. Just pull it, please.

Might have come off harsh, hope not. I like my pull outs, but they are not for everyone.

Next time I won't waste time trying to get to the handle. i'll grab it at the lanyard.

If I have something out and trailing - like PC in tow - I will chop before pulling the reserve because chances are great the my main will deploy as my reserve comes out. I know this topic is a big debate but I stick to this procedure.

Altitude awareness at all times is the key. Taking 1 sec, if you have the altitude to spare it, to check what kind of situation you have on your back I think is not a bad idea. Barrel roll is the bad word here and I didn't do one. I already explained kelpdiver what I did to check over my shoulder without flipping on my back and I call it half barrel roll but isn't really one. My time to pull the reserve is 2000 and I sticked to it, that's what I did.

Alejandro
B27585

[hookitt 0]

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I wish I had a digital cam to post a pic of my handle design. I'll try to explain.

Is this the handle you speak of?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[brianfry713 0]

You mention that you have a wingsuit friendly rig, of which the dynamic corners are a good idea but probably not really necessary, as well as a longer bridle and slightly bigger pilot chute, but why a pull-out? From BirdMan's faq, they only recommend a throw out BOC.
http://www.bird-man.com/index.php?n=faq

BASE 1224, Senior Parachute Rigger, CPL ASEL IA, AGI, IGI
USPA Coach & UPT Tandem Instructor, PRO, Altimaster Field Support Representative

[palejo 0]

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I wish I had a digital cam to post a pic of my handle design. I'll try to explain.

Is this the handle you speak of?

Exactly like that one.

Thanks for posting the pic hookitt

Alejandro
B27585

[palejo 0]

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You mention that you have a wingsuit friendly rig, of which the dynamic corners are a good idea but probably not really necessary, as well as a longer bridle and slightly bigger pilot chute, but why a pull-out? From BirdMan's faq, they only recommend a throw out BOC.
http://www.bird-man.com/index.php?n=faq

A throw out BOC is what I have and with the open corners, long bride and the whole nine yards.

Alejandro
B27585

[AFFI 0]

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If I have something out and trailing - like PC in tow - I will chop before pulling the reserve because chances are great the my main will deploy as my reserve comes out. I know this topic is a big debate but I stick to this procedure.

Altitude awareness at all times is the key.

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Although I would handle a PC in Tow differently you are totally correct that it is a topic of big debate with compelling arguments on both sides and when in that situation skydivers have died both ways and it is hard if not impossible to determine what caused the entanglement without eyewitness sources of review I.E. video footage. Its almost a crap shoot. The USPA clearly states the two acceptable methods of dealing with a PC in tow and recommends that skydivers have a preplanned course of action after review with an instructor. I commend you for making an informed decision and I am once again being presented with the challenge of re-evaluating how I might handle this situation if it ever presents itself to me.

The most important thing we can keep in mind is that the PC in tow is a preventable situation and avoidance is the best solution. Maintaining our gear and to keep in mind that an extra minute on the ground packing might make the difference whether we are presented with this potentially life threatening situation in the air.

Make it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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