DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size?

[jf951 1]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150878341334665&set=o.285841663777&type=1&theater

Jump more, Bitch less.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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The ground doesn't forget and push's back a lot harder.I'm calling a troll.

Actually by Newton's 3rd law it pushes the same
I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

Anyway I'd rather this just be closed as I was in a bad state of mind when starting it over a bad jumping experience.

The "Secret Canopy Police"? Really?

If there really was a "Canopy Gestapo" then we probably wouldn't have the amount of incidents that are "flying a perfectly good canopy into the ground" that we do.

Look through the incidents forum. There's a lot of examples of someone showing up at a DZ and jumping a canopy they couldn't handle. And getting hurt. And it often turns out that they were either warned about their choice or not allowed to jump it somewhere else.

The reality is that you could probably jump just about anything at a lot of DZs, and until you show them that you aren't capable of handling it they won't stop you. And there's nothing stopping you from having 2 rigs. One that has a canopy big enough to satisfy the "Canopy Gestapo", the other small enough for you to "maximize your fun" (which will only work until someone sees that you are a danger either to yourself or others under the small one).

Keep in mind that the DZ is a business. It wants to sell you jump tickets.
But it doesn't want to have to shut down operations to wait for the ambulance, helicopter or coroner.

They want you to have fun, but they don't want risk having you to take it away from everyone else.

And if you are interested in swooping, read this thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4361178;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

AggieDave offers some really valuable advice in posts 8 & 13. There's the usual garbage, but if you can ignore that, there's a lot in there.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[FB1609 0]

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I have my sights set on swooping.

...you have your sites set on trying to look cool, screw the consequences. Enjoy the ride, i'll remember the name.

[dqpacker 7]

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I have my sights set on swooping.

...you have your sites set on trying to look cool, screw the consequences. Enjoy the ride, i'll remember the name.

best reply ever. lol.

[Skydiverick 0]

Young Padowan,

SoFPiDaRF is for YOU! How I respect and admire your desire and determination to be the best canopy pilot in the world by downsizing your canopy to be 'right on the line without crossing it.' Remember always that you are a grown ass man and you can make your OWN decisions. Don't let any of those namby pampy wussies above try to dissuade you from your God Given destiny! Go straight for a Velo 74...and remember it packs nearly as big as a Stiletto 120! No one (including the DZO or the Canopy Gestapo) will know the difference until you crank out that amazing 720 and surf the entire length of the LZ in a blind man and then run out at the end. By then it will be too late for the DZO or staff to tell you otherwise as they and the entire crowd of whuffos will be worshiping the very ground you just swooped. Why waste a couple years and a thousand jumps under oversized canopies learning basic control skills?? You clearly have mad skills already and so I would REALLY suggest you watch the video 'Can you teach me to swoop?' which is viewable at www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGBe-Rh7o4U and especially remember the correct opening altitude mentioned near the end of the video. In no time at all, you and most of your body parts will be flying hundreds of yards through the gates so fast that everything will be a blur. An amazingly red blur. Just remember not to use your toggles. Trust your rears and never give up the gates. All the great swoopers know that it is Power first, control second, safety third.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

Here is my bottom line.... Do what you want, but don't hurt or kill me, my loved ones, or my skydiving buddies.

That sounds easy...however there have been too many jumpers minding their own business under slower canopies who got killed by some cowboy swooping into them.

BTW... Please make sure that your point of impact is not on the runway. If you obstruct the runway, we have to stop jumping until you are removed.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[F364 0]

Hey Joey your kopping lots of flak here. Why don't you just buy a wing suit and go base jumping like Jokke Sommer? They don't have rules and then your canopy would be the smallest

[yoink 321]

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How about this - what do you want to achieve? Simply answer that, and we'll be able to give good advice.
Even if you say 'I want to fly the smallest possible canopy in the shortest possible time', there's an answer. (Find a kickass canopy coach and HAMMER out the jumps, but progress in stages).

I have my sights set on swooping.

OK.

1) Now. Do as Aggie suggests and go to the swooping forum.
2) Be honest about your experience and goals, and start looking for a coach. Nobody wants you NOT to swoop, people just want you to go about it the right way and the reason for that isn't to limit how fast you progress - it's because swooping is like a pyramid of skills with the bottom layer being a solid foundation in canopy flight, accuracy, all that good stuff. The top layer is that sick 720 rotation with a 700ft surf, but you CAN'T do that without the layers beneath and a good coach will help you through all of those.
3) Most importantly at the moment, you HAVE to understand that you don't need a small canopy to start swoop lessons. Yeah, you'll need a highly loaded crossbrace for a 600' surf eventually, but simply having the gear doesn't mean you'll get the result - you need the skills and experience to make the gear perform, so focus on getting those and the results and canopy progression will come naturally. How fast they come depends on how frequently you jump and your natural talent - some people DO progress faster than others, but it's a case of doing stuff in 800 jumps rather than 1000 for someone else. It's NOT a case of doing something in 100 jumps rather than 1000 - talent doesn't make up for that much difference in experience. Keep that in mind.

Your other option is to ignore everything said here because you know better, and the community at large is just trying to hold you back. Buy a Katana 120, find somewhere to jump it and try to work out how to swoop on your own.
You may think you're better than most. You may think that you'll be conservative, but you're not, and you won't. You WILL get hurt.

Send Sangi a PM - ask him what he thinks about this. I'd be really interested to read his reply.

[ClippedWings 0]

Whatever you're thinking of doing regarding swooping, whatever your reasons are, remember, in the end it's not worth it, it's not worth breaking yourself for this.. And never ever think it's not going to happen to you, life is too random you just never know, being conservative isn't a bad thing, coolness doesn't matter when you're broken or dead.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4192725;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk

Edit: The thing is, you can most likely get away with jumping something small and higher performance for a while if you don't do anything with (and even then there are plenty of situations when the factors pile up and you get into that corner not because of yourself, but because of something else, it is very likely to happen), but eventually you will start doing something more with it and that's when the problems kick in..

For once I actually talk from experience here, I know I did get away with a lot of stupid stuff for a while (it was absolute pure luck when I look at it now, no skill), I thought and I a lot of probably think, especially if they save themselves from some trouble once or twice, they think that they will be able to do anytime all the time, so no worries.. wrong, if you don't spend your time piling up thousands of jumps (and actually making them count, not just racking up the numbers) and dedicating yourself to a step by step progression, when you start cutting corners, your luck will run out, it eventually will.. There are very few special people where they have an innate talent for stuff, but for most, it's the experience and step by step learning that got them to the point where they are now and know what they're actually doing (Soul Flyers, PD Factory Team etc).. and even then nobody is safe, look at Jonathan Tagle..

This sport is very expensive and time consuming, if you can't fully commit, don't cut corners. Just accept that, that's how it is. Not all of us are born into a rich family, so because of that you're not going to go and rob a bank now are you?

I honestly thought I was special or somewhat naturally better than others, now I'm in a wheelchair, most likely for life. All I can say is, don't be me or if you are, you have to be one tough son of a bitch to cope with all the shit that's eventually coming for you.. are you able to do that?
I'm not going to lie, I enjoyed at the time all the stupid stuff I did, I enjoyed antagonizing people over that here and elsewhere a lot, I thought that all those rules were crap, I'm getting away with it, so my way must be working, I'll just continue on and make fun of others haha, but in the end, the price was not worth it. There are betters ways to have fun.

Goodluck,
Sangi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_5JeFEipc If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough

[airtwardo 6]

Hey Kid...GOOD to see you posting!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Shyandinnocent 0]

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I don't see what's the big deal with me asking an honest question to gauge how the secret canopy police operate. The canopy gestapo are everywhere and it's helpful to know their tactics so you can maximize your amount of fun while minimize your risk of having it taken away.

I call troll!
And a funny one for a change

It's never too late for a low turn!

[longpete 1]

Swooping Star
To the tune of “Shooting Star”
Proof That Skydivers are "Bad Company"

Johnny was a schoolboy when he got his first X-braced square,
Velo '89 I think it was, hook-turned without a care.
Got himself a grounding, used to hobble home every night
But he wore a real cool outfit,
Thought "everything’s all right", don't you know?"


Johnny told his CI, "Hey, Dickhead, I'm goin' away.
I'm gonna hit the Swoop circuit, gonna be a big star someday," Yeah.
CI kicked him out the door, tossed his rig in the sand.
"Don't come back again, from now on you are banned!"

Don't you know, yeah yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, don't you know.
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
And all the babes will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are.

Johnny went to DeLand , hooked low on jump number one
Suddenly he's on the bench, his dreams of glory are gone
Watching the loads go by, surprised they fired his ass,
Johnny looked around him and said, "Don't they know I have talent and class?"

Don't you know, don't you know,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, oh,yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star, yeah,
And all the babes will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are, a Swooping Star

Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, yeah,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star, now
And all the babes will dig me just as
long,
As long as I are

Johnny died one day, in a DZ's flower bed,
Low toggle turn, hit the ground with his head
Johnny missed the swoop pond, he thought he'd hooked real fine,
If you listen to the wind you can still hear him whine

Oh oh oh
Don't you know that that I am a Swooping star,
Don't you know, yeah, don't you know,
Don't you know that I am a Swooping
star,
Don't you know, yeah,
Don't you know that that I am a Swooping star,
Don't you, don't you,
Don't you, don't you,
Don't you know, don't you know, oh, yeah, you are,
Yeah, a Swooping star, yeah, oh
Oh oh oh oh......
Don't you, don't you know
I am a Swooping star,
Don't you don't you know......

[yoink 321]

Good to see you posting, dude.

I hope Joey listens to you.


Hope your recovery is going as well as possible.

[Krip 2]

Hi Sangi

One jumper to another we love you.

Thanks for posting, we've only seen it happen Your living it

Be well

One Jump Wonder

[erdnarob 1]

Unless the visiting jumper seems to be of low experience (according his/her logbook), I don't see why a DZO would ask the size of the canopy packed in a rig. I believe that after, say, 500 jumps, in 2012, you should be considered as experienced and responsible. I went in France in 1977 for jumping an almost brand new StratoCloud and having just above 200 jumps. The DZO had a look at my rig and said everything was fine. StratoCloud were rare in France at the time. They din't even know what was a rigger.(I had my rigger rating).

Everywhere, some people in charge like to consider all jumpers as babies and irresponsible. IMO, it's an authority abuse. Just a few questions and logbook check will give them a clue.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[chuckakers 370]

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When asked how much his yacht cost, J.P. Morgan replied: "If you have to ask, you can't afford it,"

Your question reminds me of that. If you have to ask where the line is, you probably should not be anywhere near it.

+1

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[apalagian 0]

There is no simple answer, I had a DZO try to say I couldnt jump my own gear after I had already logged 100+ on that canopy. if your wing loading is slightly higher than the progression chart, you will get frowned at but they shouldnt ground you. keep in mind they consider your weieght + 30-35 lbs/wing size.

That is about the best, Bad advice I can offer.

Good Luck,
Happy shopping

[vanessalh 0]

Hey Joey,

I talked to quite a few folks at the DZ before deciding on a canopy size - all the folks at Kapowsin are very helpful. Chat with Keri, Brett, Dennis, John, Jeff - they're all super helpful.

The guide here is a good one: http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

You can get a ton of speed and performance out of a canopy with a wing loading anywhere between 1 and 1.2.

My canopy is slightly smaller than the guide recommends (150 Spectre), and everything was great until a few months back I jumped at a higher altitude DZ on a no wind day. I didn't do anything crazy (90 degree with more than enough time for canopy to recover), but realized too late just how fast I was coming in and sinking. I finished the second stage of my flare after hitting the ground and getting some seriously painful bruises on my knees (thankfully nothing is broken). This was after a canopy class, and dozens of perfect stand up landings on a 170 at other DZs.

Please be careful downsizing too quickly, I don't want to see you get hurt! I'd like to jump with you again :)

-v

[diablopilot 2]

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you will get frowned at but they shouldnt ground you.

Really? They should expose themselves to the risk of your dumb actions?

Buy your own DZ if you don't like the rules crybaby.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[knabe 0]

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Just wanted to poll some of the DZO's and DZ staffs around here.

At what point (ie, wing loading vs jumps) would you tell a jumper, who brought their own gear, that their canopy selection is too small and they are staying on the ground? I don't mean the point at which you disagree with them and shake your head at their selection, but where you actually say no you're not jumping that here.

Hey Joey,

On my DZ, the rules is clear and simple : It's prohibited to frighten the DZ owner !

And I'm really afraid to make administrative paper work after an accident ...

Andreas (really easy "afraidable" !)

En chute, si que vous voyez les vaches comme des fourmis, ça va
Si vous voyez les vaches comme des vaches, il est temps d'ouvrir
Et si vous voyez les fourmis comme des vaches, c'est...trop tard!

[yoink 321]

So,

it's been a while since you posted this, Joey... what did you do about it?


I didn't see you asking for advice on moving toward swooping in the Canopy control forum as some suggested... maybe I missed it.

Did you go and talk with a local instructor or mentor as others suggested?

Or do you think that most people here are unaware of how good you are and so you're still trying to find 'what you can get away with' but are asking other people who might be telling you what you want to hear?


genuinely curious what you've done and what gear you've bought. oh.. Where you're jumping too.

[popsjumper 2]

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239