Your AAD is broken...

[danielcroft 2]

Fair enough. I think the main disconnect here is that when you jump in a car, you don't just accelerate without doing something (Toyotas not withstanding - sorry, I had to), you control how fast you go. If you want to go 40 on the freeway, you can. When you jump out of a plane, you don't have that control. You accelerate no matter what you do.

I'd definitely agree with you on the last point. I think that's why many people are considered tourists (I have a year or two to see if I am or not) because after that length of time (5 or 6 years right?) they finally figure out that they're mortal and that they're putting themselves on the edge every time they visit the DZ.

Personally I'd like to think that I'm not a tourist but time will tell. I've had a cutaway, jump 12, I've had a long pilot chute hesitation that had me in tears and scared for my life, went up again, it happened again, so I had an experienced friend jump my rig who had the same issue and I got rid of it right away. Anyway, enough rambling.

Point is that we can't say both that you're completely dependent on yourself and that you aren't dead when you jump from the plane. We can't claim that the AAD is "only a backup" and "can't be relied on because they fail" and, at the same time, say that you'll be fine, don't worry about it. I'm sure that mindset will help some people overcome the fear but the reality is that we can all die, we can die on our very next jump and every one following that. An AAD just tips the odds a little more in our favor. It's a catcher and even they don't catch every ball.

[mjosparky 3]

It happens all the time.

---

Alan Eugene Magee (January 13, 1919 – December 20, 2003) was an American airman during World War II who survived a 22,000-foot (6,700 m) fall from his damaged B-17 Flying Fortress. He was featured in Smithsonian Magazine as one of the 10 most amazing survival stories of World War II.

---

Vesna Vulović (Serbian: Весна Вуловић; born 3 January 1950) is a former Serbian flight attendant. She holds the world record, according to the Guinness Book of Records, for surviving the highest fall without a parachute: 10,160 meters (33,330 feet).[1][2]

---

And here are 10 more.

http://www.oddee.com/item_96967.aspx

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 7]

Quote

No, your AAD will likely fire and save your life.

Only if you have an AAD. And don't you agree that people should plan on pulling handles and not rely on an AAD to pull for them?

So:

If you do not think that people should just wait for an AAD to pull for them. Then it is not incorrect to say that you are dead unless you perform correctly....

And the car analogy would only work on a course that ends with a brick wall and your car only has two speeds: full and brake.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

>Only if you have an AAD. And don't you agree that people should plan on pulling
>handles and not rely on an AAD to pull for them?

Yep.

>If you do not think that people should just wait for an AAD to pull for them.

Correct. However, in reality, it will.

>And the car analogy would only work on a course that ends with a brick wall and your
>car only has two speeds: full and brake.

Or has oncoming traffic. Or is near a cliff. Or has trees along the side. There are lots of ways to die driving, and people are discovering new ways all the time. Fortunately, it's pretty easy to avoid death when driving; it takes a minimum of skill.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Correct. However, in reality, it will.

Incorrect, it (might) cut a loop. It will not pull for them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airdvr 197]

So is it reasonable to say that roughly 20% of the skydiving population wouldn't make a jump without an operating AAD?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

So is it reasonable to say that roughly 20% of the skydiving population wouldn't make a jump without an operating AAD?

Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

I got an ear full when I told a friend I was jumping without one. Apparently I'll die without it.


Guess I proved THAT wrong!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[billvon 2,400]

>Incorrect, it (might) cut a loop. It will not pull for them.

Semantics games. I'm out of here.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Semantics games. I'm out of here.

You started it in this thread, don't blame me for calling you on it as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

So is it reasonable to say that roughly 20% of the skydiving population wouldn't make a jump without an operating AAD?

From the data in just this one poll, that seems to be a supported statement.

I would be very interested in the real numbers of people who had an Argus and cannot afford another AAD that refuse to jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

>Incorrect, it (might) cut a loop. It will not pull for them.

Semantics games. I'm out of here.

O M G! Semantics games????
BULLSHIT! In capital letters!

Please do not perpetuate the myth that an AAD deploys your reserve. You may as well go back to calling them AODs...and you know how THAT worked out.

You have enough experience to know better.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

So is it reasonable to say that roughly 20% of the skydiving population wouldn't make a jump without an operating AAD?

Which says that at least 20% of jumpers do not have the confidence in their own ability to handle emergency situations during a jump. Maybe they should consider an activity with less chance of injury or death. Just a thought.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airdvr 197]

Quote

Quote

So is it reasonable to say that roughly 20% of the skydiving population wouldn't make a jump without an operating AAD?

Which says that at least 20% of jumpers do not have the confidence in their own ability to handle emergency situations during a jump. Maybe they should consider an activity with less chance of injury or death. Just a thought.

Sparky

The point I was working towards. We've created a whole class of participants that are device dependant. Add that to the actuality that an AAD will have no bearing on the outcome of 99% of malfunctions. That adds up to a whole bunch of people that would have never made it as far as they are without the security blanket of an AAD.

I don't mean to pass judgement on those who jump an AAD except for those who won't jump without one.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Which says that at least 20% of jumpers do not have the confidence in their own ability to handle emergency situations during a jump.

It's the Nanny State that is creeping into skydiving.

But, in all fairness, I'm sure you don't mean to negate those situations where having an AAD would be beneficial.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mjosparky 3]

My apologies, I misinterpreted you post.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[thomas.n.thomas 0]

This argument can be made for any safety device - they are all unnecessary so long as everything goes according to plan. They can even sometimes be dangerous. Airbags can kill you. So can seat belts. Would you drive a car without either one?

To me, it depends on the circumstance. When I am just moving the car from the driveway into the garage, I don't bother to buckle up, because the risks are small and the safety device is mostly irrelevant. I'm sure I could find some people who refuse to even start up a car before they have belted up. It doesn't mean they're necessarily a worse driver or should not operate a vehicle. They just have a different judgment when it comes to risk mitigation.

When cruising down the highway, I will definitely have my seat belt on, because it increases my odds of survival if things go terribly and unexpectedly wrong. Do I expect to get in a horrific accident? No, otherwise I wouldn't get in the car. But, to help my odds, I will not go cruising down the highway without a seat belt. Same reasons I won't ride my motorcycle without full gear (full face helmet, jacket, gloves, boots, pants). I don't expect to crash, but if I do, I want the odds to be slightly more in my favor.
I passed up a couple of fun rides last year because I had crashed a couple days prior on the track and had concerns about the integrity of my helmet. I opted to send it in for inspection and wait to get it back instead of throwing it on and going out with friends. I didn't expect to need a helmet because I didn't expect to crash, but I wouldn't ride without having one in which I had confidence.

Because someone is more cautious does not necessarily make them less capable, but instead may simply be that he has different priorities.

By the way, I won't jump without an AAD. I also won't jump when my blood sugar is way off, or if I'm too tired. I also won't jump when it's too windy. So there are a lot of factors that I depend on to make my decision to jump. I think the ultimate question is, where do you draw the line on what you depend on?

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Heh, when I started training back in July (Wasn't really THAT long ago) my instructors were concerned that I fell so fast (170 mph several times in those early jumps) that if I ever got away from them and "failed to act," they wouldn't be able to catch up to me to deploy my parachute. From my perspective, from jump 1 (Before we even were aware of that,) there was just one thing I absolutely had to do on that jump, and by God I was going to do it.

I like the idea of the AAD, but if I realized on the ride to altitude that I'd forgotten to turn it on (Which, I might add, would be very unlikely to ever happen,) that wouldn't stop me from doing that skydive. I'm very comfortable with my altitude awareness and have been since my very first jump.

If I realize on the ground that it's malfunctioning, I'd just jump rental rigs that day. In a hypothetical scenario where I have my own gear (Should be soon now!)

So yeah, there are circumstances where I'd jump without it, but it's not something I'd want to make a habit of.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I was too damn lazy to scroll through this whole thread and see if I had already answered, but here's my response: If I worked at a DZ that allowed staff to jump without one (I do not), then I"d go jump. I've been jumping 32 years now and I did not wear an AAD (other than on my student jumps) for the first 18 of them. It didn't bug me at all in those thousands of jumps. I didn't get my first AAD (an original CYPRES) until my dad got so old and worn out that he thought he might pass out on a skydive. He bought himself one, me one, and my sister one. I was a young SGT in the army back then and didn't have the $1000 laying around to "waste" on one at the time. Hell, that was beer money! After a time, I got enough money to buy another one for my second rig and now I wouldn't consider NOT having one in my rig; my life is worth the money it costs to have an AAD and plus, since I'm a full-time instructor I just write the cost off on my taxes.

in the past decade I've worked at a number of dropzones that require AAD's on all staff "work" rigs. Simply stated: you can't do AFF, video, or coaching for the dropzone without one. I think that's a fair policy and I can definitely see how it could potentially save the life of an AFF instructor chasing a tumbling student down past the hard-deck even though we ought to know better. Tony Thacker (and his wife Kate) at Raeford Parachute Center were the first people I know who made instructor AAD's mandatory at their dropzone. They were even so kind as to provide CYPRES units from their on-DZ gear store (SkyKat) and let instructors pay them back in work jumps. I thought that was remarkable. You could do whatever you wanted in your off-time with your other rig(s).

I now work full-time at a dropzone that has a 100% mandatory AAD policy for ALL it's jumpers: Skydive San Marcos. Again: it does not affect me because all of my rigs have AAD's. It does come as a surprise, though, to some jumpers just passing through or just moving into the area. Get caught on the plane with your AAD off and you are landing with the plane.....Period. No exceptions. We had it happen just last week with a visiting jumper. In the context of this thread, though, let's examine that for a second. Say you are an experienced jumper with an AAD who simply forgot to turn the unit on or even if it truly failed while on the plane. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem getting out of the plane nor would pretty much any full-time jumper I know. BUT, that's only if I was at a place that allowed me to do it. I'm not going to break the DZ rules just to save a few bucks.

Chuck

[Greell 0]

as a relatively new jumper I just wanted to give my two cents since several people talk about jumpers "relying" on their AADs...

From all that I learned and all the research i've done, it's just another safety feature that may be useful in an emergency situation.

I certainly wouldn't "rely" on anything to save my life, other than myself. But it's comforting to know that in a worst-case scenario if I become unconscious, my AAD (ideally) will fire, and save my life.

and like they say....better to have it, and not need it, than need it and not have it, right?

[gregpso 1]

Dam right same goes for RSL/Skyhook

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I'd like to add that I HAVE been knocked unconscious of a skydive before. I was videoing a 16-way and was hit from the rear/ behind by a guy who didn't put the brakes on soon enough. I tumbled unconscious until 3500 feet (from 14,000) when I woke up and deployed. I have a seven-stitch scar in my bottom lip from it and my left shoulder was dislocated in the collision I did NOT have an AAD in my rig back then and I could have very, very-easily died on that jump. It broke my camera helmet in half. That incident is a perfect example of why my life is worth the cost of an AAD. I don't "rely" on anything, but you NEVER know what others might do to you. .

Chuck Blue, D-12501

[Quagmirian 40]

Quote

Dam right same goes for RSL/Skyhook

People who have an RSL on their rig aren't confident in their own abilities to pull the reserve after cutting away, and shouldn't be jumping.

[rbignon 0]

2 words

Gary Connery

[BigMikeH77 0]

Wow... Lots of super judgemental comments on this thread. I believe the original poll was just that - a poll. But this has become like defending why you vote one way or another.

Lay off the personal stuff like that. Some people want the extra peace of mind, others dont. None of us RELY on the AAD for if we did, we'd run out of DZ's that would let us jump.

[airdvr 197]

This isn't being rough...this is fun. I started this thread before the AAD issue. Now people are realizing that the device they won't jump without isn't foolproof, and has never been.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne