What is the business case for fun jumpers?

[3mpire 0]

From strictly a business standpoint, what is the business case to justify having fun jumpers at your dz?

I'm looking for actual business value, not feel good stuff about fostering community or giving back.

If you wanted a business man or investor to buy into the business of skydiving what is the value of fun jumpers?

[airtwardo 6]

3mpire

From strictly a business standpoint, what is the business case to justify having fun jumpers at your dz?

I'm looking for actual business value, not feel good stuff about fostering community or giving back.

If you wanted a business man or investor to buy into the business of skydiving what is the value of fun jumpers?

They attract the tandems...period.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[3mpire 0]

And as a business man I'd say the savings I'd get by keeping fun jumpers out would buy me the best ad campaign since the geico gecko ;)

[Squeak 17]

3mpire

From strictly a business standpoint, what is the business case to justify having fun jumpers at your dz?

I'm looking for actual business value, not feel good stuff about fostering community or giving back.

If you wanted a business man or investor to buy into the business of skydiving what is the value of fun jumpers?

from a business point of view, once the "COSTS" are covered by the Tandem slots, the fun jumper slots are pretty much money for Jam.
e.g. 182 DZ long weeekndMe and 3 friends, slot filling the 182 evey load, over the weekend we spent $2400 and the plane was turning for Tandems that whole time. most of that $2K would be clean profit. and all Cash in Hand.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[airtwardo 6]

3mpire

And as a business man I'd say the savings I'd get by keeping fun jumpers out would buy me the best ad campaign since the geico gecko ;)

Everyone says to make a million in skydiving start with two million...that's not really true, BUT to get RICH in skydiving - you invariably will end up fucking somebody over.

Don't be that guy.

Without fun jumpers you have no AD campaign....because you have no sport.

The reason people want to do a tandem is because they then are a 'skydiver' to all the wuffos back at the office.

"Yeah I can skydive just like those guys on the 400way in the news"

You take away the fun jumpers you have a 'real' carnival ride...tandem ride would get stale.

Do you know WHY theme parks spends millions a year on a NEW ride? Nobody wants to do the 20 year old roller coaster...even IF they've never done it before.

Now IF what you're talking about is a small tandem only operation...you can no doubt have a workable business plan and make a profit.

But then...you're in effect leaching off the operations that DO promote fun jumping to keep interest in the sport etc.

It's being done at certain places and appears to be profitable...IF that's where you're sole interest lies in the sport - filling your pockets.

Then IMHO you are no better than Slydied or any of the other cheesedick fukwads the ME gereration has seemed to produce.

You CAN be a successful businessman AND a skydiver...there are plenty of drop zones proving that.

OR you can be a cheesedikfukwadbusinessman & and make the occasional solo fun jump (with all your friends LOL) at your 'tandem factory' when you're not haulin' meat ... wondering why real skydivers won't return your calls.


Keeping fun jumpers away from your operation is like having a bar that won't let women in the door because they don't buy as many drinks as men...short sighted and stupid.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JeffCa 0]

So how much are we all being subsidised by tandems? If tandems were banned tomorrow, how much would our fun jump tickets have to cost for the average DZ to be worthwhile to run?

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[tkhayes 129]

silly question really.

They make the social atmosphere at your DZ, which drives business. Skydiving is made up of people and people are not robots.

They come to your DZ, they buy food, gear at the gear store, they drink a beer at the bar. They give the tandems something to watch while they are waiting. They are the base of knowledge and the core of your business.

They are the people that when you are talking to your tandems and your tandem asks about learning to skydive you can say "That guy/gal over there would be your instructor - he/she has 12,000 skydives and had been jumping since before you were born - there's nothing that he does not know or cannot teach you".

But if your business model is 'one tandem, then go away', sure there is no need for experienced skydivers.

I don't know about you folks, but experienced skydivers are a significant part of the bottom line. The cost of a jump ticket pays for their slot in the plane and a little more. Tandems do not subsidize the fun jumper. Nor should they.

[Maxx 1]

Quote

what is the business case to justify having fun jumpers at your dz?

Selling your sandwiches + beer!

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

I've personally brought three tandems so far to the DZ, and as many people to the vertical wind tunnel. People who wouldn't have considered it, and certainly not here, if I didn't like this DZ. I've also spent well over $15,000 in the last year at their place between gear, training and jumps. Even if the margins are thinner on that, I'm basically a marketing staff member who is paying THEM. That's a pretty good setup. Having an extra 15-20 grand come through your business is nothing to sneeze at either.

If you don't have fun jumpers promoting your business, what are you going to do? Set up a web page and get drowned out by all the Skyride pages out there? Accept Skyride students and let them take a fat cut off the top of your profits? Advertise on radio or television? I've never seen a dropzone take out an ad in radio, tv or print. Those cost money too. And if we think you're a tandem factory, we're not going to bring our friends and family to you.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[DBCOOPER 1]

JeffCa

So how much are we all being subsidised by tandems? If tandems were banned tomorrow, how much would our fun jump tickets have to cost for the average DZ to be worthwhile to run?

In all honesty a 182 slot would cost $40 to 10.5 to make it worth while as a fun jumper only business.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[demoknite 0]

Skydiving is more of a social sport than it is an extreme sport. I always talk to the tandems on the way up and chat with their families and answer any questions. Then the students can see that it is a very regulated activity and we'e not doing shots of Jeagermeister before each jump.

Also your fun jumpers are the ones that really do keep the business going. Theyre the ones that become packers, videographers, and future tandem masters.

At smaller DZs fun jumpers are the ones that tell arriving students where the manifest is and where the bathrooms are. They catch tandems on windy days. They make fun of the tandem masters when they have to take the 45 year old fat guy up to keeping them mood light.

Fun jumpers are the ones that the tandem masters do sunset loads with to take the edge off at the end of the day. Dont disenfranchise fun jumpers; they hold more long term value than the short term $250.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

If you wanted a business man or investor to buy into the business of skydiving what is the value of fun jumpers?

The 'business' case is that they fill in the nooks and crannies of the jump plane. As a DZO, you will have a limited number of tandem/student rigs and instructors, that you will not be able to fill every slot of every plane with high-value tandem/student slots. In those cases, having fun jumpers around to fill in the gaps keeps the plane flying at close to full capacity all day long.

The counter argument is that the extra jumpers add weight to the load and time to the turnaround, but I don't think that pans out at the end of the day. At a turbine DZ, and added weight is less of a penalty, so the added time does not add up to much at the end of the day. At a 182 DZ, if you're not full, you're flying with one tandem (not two) and only have two slots full. Flying at half-capacity is never a good idea, and again, the time savings will not add up to enough to make up for the half-load.

On top of that, if you're leasing your plane and have a min number of hours you need to fly each month, fun jumpers will help to get the props spinning when you don't have any (or many) tandem/students around. if you can make $50/load on a full load of fun jumpers, and make sure you don't have to out-of-pocket to meet your min hours, you're ahead money on two counts.

All of that is in addition to the other things mentioned in the thread. Good luck attracting instructors, or packers/manifest workers/office staff who jump if you don't have any fun jumpers at your DZ. They might be working 90% of the time, but when they have time to jump, they're going to want to be someplace with fun jumpers. Additionally, good luck replenishing your staff without fun jumpers around.

[excaza 1]

Agreed on all points, but $15k is only half a day of tandems

[Amazon 7]

3mpire

From strictly a business standpoint, what is the business case to justify having fun jumpers at your dz?

I'm looking for actual business value, not feel good stuff about fostering community or giving back.

If you wanted a business man or investor to buy into the business of skydiving what is the value of fun jumpers?

They are what attract your next generations of instructors and worker bee's... the only reason some DZ's I have been to still deal with those up-jumpers who are not making the DZO all the REAL money. And what the hell... they can always get bumped off the loads when the tandem traffic gets intense anyway.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Amazon

They are what attract your next generations of instructors and worker bee's... the only reason some DZ's I have been to still deal with those up-jumpers who are not making the DZO all the REAL money. And what the hell... they can always get bumped off the loads when the tandem traffic gets intense anyway.

If you do it right, you can make money on the fun jumper's slot too. And you're right, where else are you going to get all your employees if you don't grow some yourself. I've watched many go from first jump to instructor over the years.

[Amazon 7]

JohnMitchell

***They are what attract your next generations of instructors and worker bee's... the only reason some DZ's I have been to still deal with those up-jumpers who are not making the DZO all the REAL money. And what the hell... they can always get bumped off the loads when the tandem traffic gets intense anyway.

If you do it right, you can make money on the fun jumper's slot too. And you're right, where else are you going to get all your employees if you don't grow some yourself. I've watched many go from first jump to instructor over the years.

It all depends on the mindset of the DZO, quick money is very attractive.

Personally I appreciate the DZ's that strike up a balance and cater to all as if it's a part of their fiber and life.

[Remster 24]

davelepka

Quote

If you wanted a business man or investor to buy into the business of skydiving what is the value of fun jumpers?

The 'business' case is that they fill in the nooks and crannies of the jump plane. As a DZO, you will have a limited number of tandem/student rigs and instructors, that you will not be able to fill every slot of every plane with high-value tandem/student slots. In those cases, having fun jumpers around to fill in the gaps keeps the plane flying at close to full capacity all day long.

The counter argument is that the extra jumpers add weight to the load and time to the turnaround, but I don't think that pans out at the end of the day. At a turbine DZ, and added weight is less of a penalty, so the added time does not add up to much at the end of the day. At a 182 DZ, if you're not full, you're flying with one tandem (not two) and only have two slots full. Flying at half-capacity is never a good idea, and again, the time savings will not add up to enough to make up for the half-load.

On top of that, if you're leasing your plane and have a min number of hours you need to fly each month, fun jumpers will help to get the props spinning when you don't have any (or many) tandem/students around. if you can make $50/load on a full load of fun jumpers, and make sure you don't have to out-of-pocket to meet your min hours, you're ahead money on two counts.

All of that is in addition to the other things mentioned in the thread. Good luck attracting instructors, or packers/manifest workers/office staff who jump if you don't have any fun jumpers at your DZ. They might be working 90% of the time, but when they have time to jump, they're going to want to be someplace with fun jumpers. Additionally, good luck replenishing your staff without fun jumpers around.

Its more complicated than that.

If someone cared enough to do the math (and i don't right now lol), Id' be interesting to know what the lifetime value of a fun-jumper is vs a 1 time tandem.

And yeah, it would be very different for a large DZ with multiple turbines, vs a a small 1 cesna DZ, but I'd be curious nonetheless...

Remster

[Bluhdow 31]

If you're a tandem-only operation you're missing any and all AFF business. Those slots must have decent margins as well.

Nobody would want to do AFF at a strictly AFF/Tandem operation either, so just adding the more expensive services wouldn't be terribly helpful.

Apex BASE
#1816

[NWFlyer 2]

Bluhdow

If you're a tandem-only operation you're missing any and all AFF business. Those slots must have decent margins as well.

Nobody would want to do AFF at a strictly AFF/Tandem operation either, so just adding the more expensive services wouldn't be terribly helpful.

When you say "no one would want to do AFF" do you mean no one would want to teach it or no one would want to be a student? Because I've seen some folks go through AFF at some very tandem-focused dropzones near here. They don't know what they don't know. They just know that the DZ closest to their home (which, let's face it, is often the way a DZ gets chosen) has AFF and they want to learn to skydive.

Of course, often times they'll show up at one of the more fun-jumper-friendly DZs once they get their A license because they realize that there's more to skydiving than solo jumps.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[demoknite 0]

Remster

***

Quote

If you wanted a business man or investor to buy into the business of skydiving what is the value of fun jumpers?

The 'business' case is that they fill in the nooks and crannies of the jump plane. As a DZO, you will have a limited number of tandem/student rigs and instructors, that you will not be able to fill every slot of every plane with high-value tandem/student slots. In those cases, having fun jumpers around to fill in the gaps keeps the plane flying at close to full capacity all day long.

The counter argument is that the extra jumpers add weight to the load and time to the turnaround, but I don't think that pans out at the end of the day. At a turbine DZ, and added weight is less of a penalty, so the added time does not add up to much at the end of the day. At a 182 DZ, if you're not full, you're flying with one tandem (not two) and only have two slots full. Flying at half-capacity is never a good idea, and again, the time savings will not add up to enough to make up for the half-load.

On top of that, if you're leasing your plane and have a min number of hours you need to fly each month, fun jumpers will help to get the props spinning when you don't have any (or many) tandem/students around. if you can make $50/load on a full load of fun jumpers, and make sure you don't have to out-of-pocket to meet your min hours, you're ahead money on two counts.

All of that is in addition to the other things mentioned in the thread. Good luck attracting instructors, or packers/manifest workers/office staff who jump if you don't have any fun jumpers at your DZ. They might be working 90% of the time, but when they have time to jump, they're going to want to be someplace with fun jumpers. Additionally, good luck replenishing your staff without fun jumpers around.

Its more complicated than that.

If someone cared enough to do the math (and i don't right now lol), Id' be interesting to know what the lifetime value of a fun-jumper is vs a 1 time tandem.

And yeah, it would be very different for a large DZ with multiple turbines, vs a a small 1 cesna DZ, but I'd be curious nonetheless...

Without whipping out the pencil and paper and the fact that Im on lunch...
Tandem costs 250. One and done, see you later.
Average lift ticket is 25. Fun jumper spends Saturday and Sunday jumping and does a casual 5 each day. Thats 250 without having to pay out for the tandem master and taking one slot each time instead of two. Over the course of the year he brings in two of his buddies to do a tandem and one of those takes up AFF. Theres another ~$2500 +/-.

He sees a tandem student smoking in the harness and immediately tells him/her to extinguish it saving the DZO $1000.
A tandem student that was just going for a ride is now actually interested. Your fun jumpers tell him about your AFF program (because they're there every weekend and went through the program themselves) and he decides to take it up himself but cant afford it so he becomes a packer.
Unless you have a unique situation like working at tourist destination, doing only tandems is just going to end up making your competitors money in the end.

[Fast 0]

Bluhdow

If you're a tandem-only operation you're missing any and all AFF business. Those slots must have decent margins as well.

Nobody would want to do AFF at a strictly AFF/Tandem operation either, so just adding the more expensive services wouldn't be terribly helpful.

AFF Student slots don't actually have that great of a margin. Also, you're kidding yourself if you think the average beginning skydiver knows better than to start jumping at a tandem mill as an AFF student.

Honestly, it all depends what you're looking for. There is absolutely no need for sport jumpers at any individual dropzone if you're only interested in how much money you're going to make. Flying say a PAC750 - doing all handcam you can run 5-6 tandems per load and if you're charging 200 for a tandem and 100 for a handcam video your profit should be somewhere between 500 and 1000 per load depending on your overhead costs which can vary greatly depending on how you run the rest of the business.

Those are just ballpark figures. You're going to have loads with more and less customers. When you put sport jumpers on the plane you just leech that money away, it's not really a profitable enterprise.

As an operation like that you're going to have to import your instructors which makes you at least partially dependant on other dropzones, but there are enough of them around to make it work (for now).

That being said - a lot of the important points have been made. Sport jumpers set atmosphere. They make it a sport. They become your staff. They are the friends that make it fun. They make skydiving appealing to the public.


I dunno, I have seen a lot of this first hand. I have watched one dropzone open as predominantly a tandem factory which turned into sport friendly and I have another tandem factory right down the road from me that seems to just be staying that way. I personally don't look at skydiving as a job - I do the job side of it so I can afford the more fun side of it, but everyone isn't looking for that, some people (DZOs and Staff alike) just want the money and have no desire to do the fun side of it.

If the sport jumpers across the board go away for economic reasons or because DZOs don't want to deal with them, the industry will change dramatically.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[hillson 0]

demoknite

Tandem costs 250. One and done, see you later.
Average lift ticket is 25. Fun jumper spends Saturday and Sunday jumping and does a casual 5 each day. Thats 250 without having to pay out for the tandem master and taking one slot each time instead of two

Don't discount, too, the value of upjumper money *right now*. Dunno how many tandems pre-pay the entire thing but I'm willing to bet a fair number of the $25 seat warmers keep money on account / buy blocks of tickets / etc. It might take me a month to burn through $1000 in tickets but you got my money today and you can use it however you want now or in the future to pay bills/salaries, fund current ops, invest etc.

The $25 ticket from March that I found floating around in my gear bag this weekend was like free money to me...though the DZ had spent my ducats months ago. And then I was out of tickets to time to go spend more $$!

Plus in the intervening month or whatever that it took me to spend the ticket money I was spending scads of cash elsewhere on other essentials - like beer.

[Fast 0]

hillson

***Tandem costs 250. One and done, see you later.
Average lift ticket is 25. Fun jumper spends Saturday and Sunday jumping and does a casual 5 each day. Thats 250 without having to pay out for the tandem master and taking one slot each time instead of two

Don't discount, too, the value of upjumper money *right now*. Dunno how many tandems pre-pay the entire thing but I'm willing to bet a fair number of the $25 seat warmers keep money on account / buy blocks of tickets / etc. It might take me a month to burn through $1000 in tickets but you got my money today and you can use it however you want now or in the future to pay bills/salaries, fund current ops, invest etc.

The $25 ticket from March that I found floating around in my gear bag this weekend was like free money to me...though the DZ had spent my ducats months ago. And then I was out of tickets to time to go spend more $$!

Plus in the intervening month or whatever that it took me to spend the ticket money I was spending scads of cash elsewhere on other essentials - like beer.

Money "right now" is only valuable if the customer doesn't come redeem it. If they do you find yourself on the hook for something that you already spent the income from. Do that too often and you end up having to short _someone_ to pay the bills.

It's a bad way to do business. It only works for groupon type things where you get a bunch of money and hope the customer never comes in. Sport jumpers pretty much always come collect their money. If you can't manage your cashflow to a point where you're trading on sport jumper bulk buys you're spending too much somewhere.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Remster 24]

Fast

******Tandem costs 250. One and done, see you later.
Average lift ticket is 25. Fun jumper spends Saturday and Sunday jumping and does a casual 5 each day. Thats 250 without having to pay out for the tandem master and taking one slot each time instead of two

Don't discount, too, the value of upjumper money *right now*. Dunno how many tandems pre-pay the entire thing but I'm willing to bet a fair number of the $25 seat warmers keep money on account / buy blocks of tickets / etc. It might take me a month to burn through $1000 in tickets but you got my money today and you can use it however you want now or in the future to pay bills/salaries, fund current ops, invest etc.

The $25 ticket from March that I found floating around in my gear bag this weekend was like free money to me...though the DZ had spent my ducats months ago. And then I was out of tickets to time to go spend more $$!

Plus in the intervening month or whatever that it took me to spend the ticket money I was spending scads of cash elsewhere on other essentials - like beer.

Money "right now" is only valuable if the customer doesn't come redeem it. If they do you find yourself on the hook for something that you already spent the income from. Do that too often and you end up having to short _someone_ to pay the bills.

It's a bad way to do business. It only works for groupon type things where you get a bunch of money and hope the customer never comes in. Sport jumpers pretty much always come collect their money. If you can't manage your cashflow to a point where you're trading on sport jumper bulk buys you're spending too much somewhere.

That's not how financial comparison work. Money now is better than money later. Always. How stupid you are with that money is another issue.

Remster

[Fast 0]

Remster

That's not how financial comparison work. Money now is better than money later. Always. How stupid you are with that money is another issue.

Sure - in the greater sense. But we are talking about dropzones here. A kegger now is always more fun than paying the mechanic later.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka