RSL on both Risers

[Fredmijokish 0]

Not sure it right place to ask this question !!!

 

Why RSL is not connected and used for both risers ? 

[skydiverek 60]

It is on some containers.

RACER

Atom

[DenLeeuw 1]

It's a good question!

What benefit do you think that would bring? :-) 

Because the complication of more hardware (and some other things) brings a lot of downsides and risk too,

[wolfriverjoe 1,400]

4 hours ago, Fredmijokish said:

Not sure it right place to ask this question !!!

 

Why RSL is not connected and used for both risers ? 

I think it would be better in Gear & Rigging. If a moderator feels strongly enough about that, it may get moved.

2 hours ago, DenLeeuw said:

It's a good question!

What benefit do you think that would bring? :-) 

Because the complication of more hardware (and some other things) brings a lot of downsides and risk too,

Note: My response may appear a bit sarcastic or snarky. Apologies in advance if it seems that way. That is NOT my intent. Sometimes its just hard to convey accurate emotions in a text response.

It is a great question. However, it's been asked and answered in a number of different ways over the years.

If you're new, you weren't around to see/hear those answers, so I think it's great you are thinking about this sort of thing and asking these sorts of questions.

I heard this a while back, and have repeated it a bunch:

There's no need to apologize for your ignorance, unless you do nothing to correct it.

 (I TOLD YOU I was stealing that, Sandy)

With any sort of thing like this, a couple things have to be asked and answered:

What benefit does it bring?
What hazards does it add?

How much does it cost? 

In the case of the double sided RSL, a few different solutions have been used. 

They aren't used much today, because they really aren't needed.

RSLs work as intended, and either premature release or a 'hang up' due to a riser breaking happens very rarely these days.

While not exactly what you are asking, the Collins Lanyard achieves pretty much the same thing.

A quick search found this:
 

(note who created the thread )

If you search more, you will find more. 

[danornan 67]

I'm not a rigger, but I think the simple answer is that in general, one side is enough and both could invite a problem. In an of it's self, an RSL is simple and has saved many lives.  Not having it as led to deaths.

Edited May 27 by danornan

[obelixtim 108]

On 5/27/2024 at 9:37 PM, danornan said:

I'm not a rigger, but I think the simple answer is that in general, one side is enough and both could invite a problem. In an of it's self, an RSL is simple and has saved many lives.  Not having it as led to deaths.

 Not having it hasn't led to deaths. Death may have followed after other things were not done correctly, like cutting away and pulling a reserve handle with altitude to spare.   

 It would be better to say that having it has prevented a few deaths after a partial malfunction. A lanyard has no influence on a total malfunction for instance. There are instances where a lanyard has contributed to fatal accidents. On balance it is better to have one, unless you are doing CRW.   

[lyosha 48]

On 5/27/2024 at 3:46 AM, Fredmijokish said:

Not sure it right place to ask this question !!!

 

Why RSL is not connected and used for both risers ? 

It's connected on both sides in a Racer container.  The setup has almost killed a few people.  There's some fun youtube videos out there of the complications that can happen.

[wmw999 2,242]

3 hours ago, lyosha said:

It's connected on both sides in a Racer container.  The setup has almost killed a few people.  There's some fun youtube videos out there of the complications that can happen.

It's not the setup, it's the mistakes. Set up properly, two connections overcomes a low-likelihood problem that is prevented with proper rigging. But it introduces other error scenarios, some of them real-time during a malfunction because of flailing. Personally I want safety backups as simple as possible. I'm more OK with me failing than with my safety equipment failing

Wendy P. 

[riggerrob 581]

The OP asked a valid question.

The answer is that many container manufacturers have tried double-sided RSLs but most found them too complex to be practical.

The first attempt was the cross-connector seen on Racers and EZ-Flyers. In the worst possible scenario - releasing the main after the reserve reaches line-stretch - the departing main might choke off the reserve. The Racer factory’s solution was to offer a single-sided RSL.

Parachutes de France developed a two-pin reserve closing system with each pin connected to an RSL. One main riser leaving would not open the reserve because you needed to pull both pins to open the reserve container. OTOH pulling the reserve rip-cord would pull both pins.

The dilemma kept coming back to the problem of broken main risers. The two most popular reasons for broken risers were mini-Rings and tandems. Back around 1990 we suffered a perfect-storm of zero-P fabric, zero-stretch suspension lines, mini-risers and mini-rings. After a few skydivers suffered painfully hard openings, bent hip rings, broken risers, etc. PIA and 3-Ring Incorporated published new standards for reinforcing mini-rings. The problem of broken mini-risers disappearred 30 years ago. 
The second most likely cause of broken risers is tandem flip-through which are mostly prevented by better work-habits of packers and tandem instructors.

Relative Workshop/United Parachute Technologies noticed a third pattern with broken risers: the right riser is the most likely to break because we toss our pilot-chutes with our right hands and are likely to be right-shoulder-low during deployment. So RWS installed RSLs on right risers only and added the Collins lanyard to strip the left (3-Ring) release cable as the broken right riser departed.

RWS later licensed Collins Lanyards to half a dozen other manufacturers as part of the Skyhook MARD. Main Assisted Reserve Deployment is a fancy version of an RSL.

[fcajump 157]

On 6/4/2024 at 1:46 AM, wmw999 said:

It's not the setup, it's the mistakes. Set up properly, two connections overcomes a low-likelihood problem that is prevented with proper rigging. But it introduces other error scenarios, some of them real-time during a malfunction because of flailing. Personally I want safety backups as simple as possible. I'm more OK with me failing than with my safety equipment failing

Wendy P. 

Normally I agree with you Wendy, but here I have a problem...  

(IIRC - corrections welcome, its been a while):
In the case of the Racer, properly configured with a the double sided RSL - in the case of a double deployment where the reserve deploys first a cutaway without releasing the RSL can/has caused fatalities as the dual RSL connected to main risers will choke the reserve.  When asked about this scenario, the response was to point out that the manual instructs that the RSL connections are to be released after confirming that the canopy has opened correctly for every jump.  (I'd quote, but I'm not able to pull the manual from their site right now)

No flailing involved, not talking about improper rigging (which can also be an issue with the Racer dual-RSL), just a two-out in the "wrong order" where the main is released before the RSL.  

 

JW

 

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,168]

3 hours ago, fcajump said:

Normally I agree with you Wendy, but here I have a problem...  

(IIRC - corrections welcome, its been a while):
In the case of the Racer, properly configured with a the double sided RSL - in the case of a double deployment where the reserve deploys first a cutaway without releasing the RSL can/has caused fatalities as the dual RSL connected to main risers will choke the reserve.  When asked about this scenario, the response was to point out that the manual instructs that the RSL connections are to be released after confirming that the canopy has opened correctly for every jump.  (I'd quote, but I'm not able to pull the manual from their site right now)

No flailing involved, not talking about improper rigging (which can also be an issue with the Racer dual-RSL), just a two-out in the "wrong order" where the main is released before the RSL.  

 

JW

 

 

Hi Jim,

I have never understood the rationale for John's double RSL idea.  I'm sure he had one, but I still do not know it.

But, like the PCJr, New Coke & the Edsel, it is now ( for the most part ) on the ash heap of history. *

Jerry Baumchen

* The French one, using two '9' pins seemed to work OK.  Usually more parts => more problems.

[gowlerk 2,013]

7 hours ago, fcajump said:

When asked about this scenario, the response was to point out that the manual instructs that the RSL connections are to be released after confirming that the canopy has opened correctly for every jump. 

And the big problem with that in my mind is that the main reason for having an RSL is that too many people were doing a cutaway and then forgetting to deploy. Now the double sided RSL requires the same group of people to remember to disconnect it if they have a two out. Admittedly a fairly uncommon scenario, but that is part of the reason people forget procedures. The need is uncommon.

[danornan 67]

I don't think that most with a malfunction forgot to deploy their reserve after a cut away, I think they were trying to be riggers in the sky and ran out of time. An RSL removes that step from the equasion.

[Iwan 44]

On 5/27/2024 at 11:51 AM, skydiverek said:

It is on some containers.

RACER

Atom

But we are talking about totally different solutions. Parachutes de France choose the way to solve the problem of one riser RSL connection. They have in LOR2 two pins, you have to have both risers disconnected to open reserve container. Racer double RSL is something really sick. RSL is the system for idiots, who forgot to pull reserve handle after cut away so Racer double RSL is for no-one, to survive users have to remember about sequence, idiots could be dead. 

So PdF - two pins. One is removed = no action, two are removed RPC activation. It's AND

PL - Left or right riser is going to remove pin = action. It's OR

Drastic difference. 

[gowlerk 2,013]

46 minutes ago, Iwan said:

So PdF - two pins. One is removed = no action, two are removed RPC activation. It's AND

PL - Left or right riser is going to remove pin = action. It's OR

And both are now pretty much obsolete oddities. You can't buy a PdF rig. You can still get a Racer but very few do and almost all of them sold do not have the cross connected RSL system. Most people buying new containers opt for one with a MARD system. 

[fcajump 157]

On 6/5/2024 at 2:39 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Jim,

I have never understood the rationale for John's double RSL idea.  I'm sure he had one, but I still do not know it.

But, like the PCJr, New Coke & the Edsel, it is now ( for the most part ) on the ash heap of history. *

Jerry Baumchen

* The French one, using two '9' pins seemed to work OK.  Usually more parts => more problems.

Agree, very different solutions to a problem that does not occur often... that of a riser break on the RSL side (resulting in a reserve deployment without the other side released).  This was mostly eliminated by strengthening the mini-risers*.

And if my early morning brain is thinking correctly, even if such a break happens now, this scenario is now usually mitigated by a Collin's Lanyard.

While I was not usually in agreement with John's solutions, I am GLAD this industry has people that constantly question the status-quo and standard solutions, and are looking for better ways to do things.  If one looks at the various riser release systems prior to the three ring, it is clear that many people were not satisfied and trying to find a better way (as a single example).

 

*completely different line - I've heard of one individual (works for a mfg) who doesn't put the reinforcement in his own risers, choosing instead to have it be a "weak link" in case of an overspeed deployment.

JW

 

 

[lyosha 48]

Not sure if I didn't hit the "submit reply" button or my post got deleted, but I'll try again for posterity.

As I become a more and more experienced skydiver a decade into jumping, I am less and less sympathetic to gear with significant failure modes from perceptibly normal operation or minor faults.

In the case of the Racer dual RSL, it will try to kill you if you follow instructions in the SIM.  This is for sure the worst offender I can think of in that category.  That simply should not exist in skydiving.  The "borrowed gear - borrowed death" age should have been long over by the time I became a skydiver.

I've actually met someone who a Racer almost killed.  He bought a rig second hand and downsized into it.  He was very heads up, but never in a million years did he think that following something in the SIM would almost kill him.  But lo and behold, it did.

Even if you're the most heads up skydiver and know to disconnect one side of the RSL in a high speed mal - someone will buy your gear, and selling something with that RSL to someone else is just reckless.

[fcajump 157]

On 6/7/2024 at 9:38 AM, lyosha said:

Not sure if I didn't hit the "submit reply" button or my post got deleted, but I'll try again for posterity.

As I become a more and more experienced skydiver a decade into jumping, I am less and less sympathetic to gear with significant failure modes from perceptibly normal operation or minor faults.

In the case of the Racer dual RSL, it will try to kill you if you follow instructions in the SIM.  This is for sure the worst offender I can think of in that category.  That simply should not exist in skydiving.  The "borrowed gear - borrowed death" age should have been long over by the time I became a skydiver.

I've actually met someone who a Racer almost killed.  He bought a rig second hand and downsized into it.  He was very heads up, but never in a million years did he think that following something in the SIM would almost kill him.  But lo and behold, it did.

Even if you're the most heads up skydiver and know to disconnect one side of the RSL in a high speed mal - someone will buy your gear, and selling something with that RSL to someone else is just reckless.

I have a Racer, and it is very comfortable.  

I choose to either not use the RSL or use it single sided (that is an option).  I bought it as a rigger wanting to understand the system better. 

There is a second issue with the Racer double sided RSL... if the rigger installs it prior to closing the container (against the manual), it can be trapped under the top reserve flap.  Now, most rigs can be packed in such a way as to have fatal flaws, but there is something to be said about dealing with rigs that are less common and different from the mainstream.  

I would make a few recommendations to anyone with a Racer:
* get a rigger that _knows_ Racers
* learn about how your system is different
* think twice about using the double sided RSL (and if you're still using it... thing about it some more).
* do NOT loan your rig to anyone who isn't a Racer owner.
* do NOT tighten your reserve closing loop, take it back to the rigger who packed it if it gets a little loose. (same with Reflex)
* do NOT jump with the reserve PC loose/showing fabric (same with Reflex/Jav/etc)
* ask your rigger is use a scale each time the reserve is popped and check what the pull force is (good practice on any rig, but especially on Racer and Reflex).

Mine is up for sale occasionally (230-260M / 235R) but more because I don't need a third rig at this point.

JW