Tesla Stock

[SkyDekker 1,150]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

First use of aluminum die casting for a production car
Largest battery at the time of new car release 
Longest range at the time of release
First autonomous driving features (level 2) available to the public
First production EV that outperformed all other production gas cars in acceleration
Highest power computing platform on a car when first released

Quite a lot of cutting edge work.  We'll see if that continues with Musk's tendency to fire anyone he doesn't like.

Aluminum die casting wasn't new, nor hardly cutting edge.

Putting a battery in a car or using an electric engine was hardly cutting edge

Autonomous driving features are much more software related than car related

"endless" torque is a wonderful byproduct of using the electric engine. Noting cutting edge there

Highest computing platform...yes exactly what I am talking about.

 

The cars themselves are shit, the technology is cool.

[billvon 2,466]

34 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Aluminum die casting wasn't new, nor hardly cutting edge.

It's new for building cars.

Quote

Putting a battery in a car or using an electric engine was hardly cutting edge

Sure, the Impact and the Leaf did it first. And before that, there were a dozen EVs produced back in 1910, from the Phaeton to the Morrison to the Studebaker.  But there was no comparison between the Leaf's 24kwhr / 107hp drivetrain and the Model S's 85kwhr / 400hp drivetrain.  Or the improvement to that, at 100kwhr / 1020hp.  That was cutting edge, and had the very important effect of moving the perception of EVs from "golf carts" to "the fastest cars on the road."

Quote

Autonomous driving features are much more software related than car related

And to implement them, you need cutting edge hardware AND software.  We are entering an age where the software is the larger part (in terms of effort) of any new design, whether it's a car, a phone or even a spacecraft.

Quote

"endless" torque is a wonderful byproduct of using the electric engine. Noting cutting edge there

That's like saying "thrust is a byproduct of using rockets.  Nothing cutting edge about the Apollo program or the space shuttle."  Both those programs used existing technology and put it together in new (and very significant) ways.  Even if the Saturn 1 had very similar engines, and even if the Space Shuttle was just an extension of the HL-10/M2-F2/Dynasoar programs.

Quote

The cars themselves are shit, the technology is cool.

The cars are the technology.

[gowlerk 1,952]

5 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I don't think Tesla has ever really been a car company under Musk. I believe it is much more a software company. There is nothing "cutting edge" about Tesla's on the automotive side.

Well….. they ain’t gonna sell much of that fancy software tech without a fancy automobile to wrap around it. So I’m not really sure where you are coming from on this. In the end the product they sell needs to move people from one place to another. So far no one has managed to do that with VR, so as far as I know they are a car company.

Edited May 10 by gowlerk

[SethInMI 146]

Even after 3 years I get in my Tesla and it feels like the future. Musk loves innovation, it doesn't have to be just software, and in fact I think he likes innovative hardware more, be it a new efficient rocket motor or re-usable first stage from spacex, or Tesla with its huge castings, fancy heat pump for cabin heat, or just the single screen no gauge cluster design of the 3 and Y.

But bring software and hardware innovation together, and that is what SpaceX and Tesla will be remembered for (imho).  The idea to put a cell modem in every car paid for by Tesla was brilliant.  You don't need android auto anymore or apple car play, b/c you can update the UI yourself.  And you can update the rest of the car's software at the same time.  And now you can allow people to control their cars from an app on their phone, b/c they can talk to the car even when they are not in the car. Such a simple hardware concept, a modem in every car, but it changed everything. 

 

Edited May 10 by SethInMI

[ryoder 1,407]

This just confirms what I have read previously:

NASA Director Is Glad Elon Musk Isn't Running SpaceX

In an interview with NPR, NASA director Bill Nelson assuages any fears of an unsupervised Elon Musk running a space agency by reminding us that SpaceX is actually run by its president Gwynne Shotwell. Nelson trusts Shotwell to protect SpaceX from Elon Musk’s often irrational fever dreams, and thus to protect the billions of American tax dollars granted to SpaceX in government contracts from his wayward spending, too

[wmw999 2,167]

I believe my son was 22 when he told me he’d never use PayPal because Musk was a flaming asshole who treated too many people too poorly. That was 18 years ago. So I think the asshole thing is genetic. Most of us have one, we just don’t use it to present to world every day as our best side

Wendy P. 

[normiss 640]

11 hours ago, billvon said:

It's new for building cars.

Sure, the Impact and the Leaf did it first. And before that, there were a dozen EVs produced back in 1910, from the Phaeton to the Morrison to the Studebaker.  But there was no comparison between the Leaf's 24kwhr / 107hp drivetrain and the Model S's 85kwhr / 400hp drivetrain.  Or the improvement to that, at 100kwhr / 1020hp.  That was cutting edge, and had the very important effect of moving the perception of EVs from "golf carts" to "the fastest cars on the road."

And to implement them, you need cutting edge hardware AND software.  We are entering an age where the software is the larger part (in terms of effort) of any new design, whether it's a car, a phone or even a spacecraft.

That's like saying "thrust is a byproduct of using rockets.  Nothing cutting edge about the Apollo program or the space shuttle."  Both those programs used existing technology and put it together in new (and very significant) ways.  Even if the Saturn 1 had very similar engines, and even if the Space Shuttle was just an extension of the HL-10/M2-F2/Dynasoar programs.

The cars are the technology.

Early 1900's Bugatti's would like to register a disagreement.

A number of manufacturers have used various types of aluminum casting for engine components for many years - it was a big selling point of the Saturn cars by GM - they used a lost foam casting process which I believe was a new process for low pressure aluminum casting.

CAD/CAM/CAE has been designing and manufacturing aluminum casting and machining since the 70's, so the hardware and software have been there for years - of course all tech improves over time though. CAD has done some impressive things for aircraft and spacecraft. Some defense industry manufacturers have been using this tech since forever. I've seen milling machines with beds over 50ft manufacturing wind tunnel components, rocket test stands, rocket body components, weapons and defense systems.

The cars aren't the tech IMO, just a different application of similar tech. New process using old tech isn't new.

Electrical and battery tech has improved significantly and continues to as well - that is a big advantage for the Tesla electric products as well as numerous other industries.

[normiss 640]

10 hours ago, SethInMI said:

Even after 3 years I get in my Tesla and it feels like the future. Musk loves innovation, it doesn't have to be just software, and in fact I think he likes innovative hardware more, be it a new efficient rocket motor or re-usable first stage from spacex, or Tesla with its huge castings, fancy heat pump for cabin heat, or just the single screen no gauge cluster design of the 3 and Y.

But bring software and hardware innovation together, and that is what SpaceX and Tesla will be remembered for (imho).  The idea to put a cell modem in every car paid for by Tesla was brilliant.  You don't need android auto anymore or apple car play, b/c you can update the UI yourself.  And you can update the rest of the car's software at the same time.  And now you can allow people to control their cars from an app on their phone, b/c they can talk to the car even when they are not in the car. Such a simple hardware concept, a modem in every car, but it changed everything. 

 

Tesla wasn't the first to do that. I think GM was IIRC - in a Caddy???

My first software update on a car was a 90's Jeep, but the current software on my laptop and automotive test computers is FAR beyond that technology.

I would blame the government with their mileage and emissions requirements for the advancement of tech in cars - going back to the 70's.

While auto tech wasn't what it is now, that's not on a single manufacturer either.

[gowlerk 1,952]

14 minutes ago, normiss said:

A number of manufacturers have used various types of aluminum casting for engine components for many years - it was a big selling point of the Saturn cars by GM - they used a lost foam casting process which I believe was a new process for low pressure aluminum casting.

Of course casting aluminum is not new. The technique pioneered by Tesla a few years ago was very new, and cutting edge in mass production. And is now being adopted by several other makers. No one is claiming Elon invented fire. Innovation in manufacturing is always done in steps.

https://insideevs.com/news/673158/tesla-giga-casting-manufacturing-becomes-mainstream/

[billvon 2,466]

2 hours ago, normiss said:

The cars aren't the tech IMO, just a different application of similar tech. New process using old tech isn't new.

Of course it is.

Again, if old technologies used in new ways isn't new, then the Apollo program wasn't new (same World War II technology, just new designs.)  The Space Shuttle wasn't new.  (Lifting body designs from the 1950s.)  The personal computer wasn't new (the SDS 92 did that in 1965.)  The Wright Brothers didn't design anything new (other people had built both aircraft and powerplants before that.)  Jenner and Pasteur didn't do anything new with vaccines; milkmaids had been getting cowpox for years, which was protective against smallpox.

But I think most people would argue that working aircraft, vaccines, reusable space vehicles and personal computers were actually new technologies.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

The technique pioneered by Tesla a few years ago was very new,

It wasn't pioneered by Tesla, it was pioneered by an Italian company, who designs and manufactures the presses. Yes it was Tesla who saw the benefit and worked with that company to improve their MANUFACTURING process.

Has it improved the car, or has it improved the manufacturing of the car?

 

[SkyDekker 1,150]

13 minutes ago, billvon said:

Of course it is.

Again, if old technologies used in new ways isn't new, then the Apollo program wasn't new (same World War II technology, just new designs.)  The Space Shuttle wasn't new.  (Lifting body designs from the 1950s.)  The personal computer wasn't new (the SDS 92 did that in 1965.)  The Wright Brothers didn't design anything new (other people had built both aircraft and powerplants before that.)  Jenner and Pasteur didn't do anything new with vaccines; milkmaids had been getting cowpox for years, which was protective against smallpox.

But I think most people would argue that working aircraft, vaccines, reusable space vehicles and personal computers were actually new technologies.

Yes, the space program that put the first people on the moon is the same as Tesla, who I guess were the first to get nerds out of their mom's basement.....same accomplishment I guess.

Edited May 10 by SkyDekker

[billvon 2,466]

16 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Yes, the space program that put the first people on the moon is the same as Tesla

Nope.  Two completely different things.  I have no idea where you got that.

What the comparison referred to is that there was no new technology in Apollo, if your definition of "new technology" is a never before seen device or principle.  

But that's not the definition of new technology.  New technology involves both entirely new principles (nuclear reactions in a reactor) and putting decades-old existing technology together in new ways (quadrotor drones.)

[BIGUN 1,100]

18 minutes ago, billvon said:

New technology involves

Evolves.

[SethInMI 146]

3 hours ago, normiss said:

Tesla wasn't the first to do that. I think GM was IIRC - in a Caddy???

Like others are saying, it isn't that Tesla was first with anything, it's that they did it right. Like Apple with the mouse. Apple didn't invent it but they used it properly, combined it with good software design to produce an innovative product.

Tesla was rolling out OTA software updates to its entire fleet multiple times a year from 2012 and still does it today for millions of cars.  Other car companies are finally getting on board 12 years later. 

I think that is why auto manfs. gave their UIs to Google and Apple via Android Auto and CarPlay. They couldn't keep up without an OTA mechanism.  Having to use Android Auto is a PITA comprise that is finally dying now all? new car models can OTA and have Google or other UI built-in.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

Two completely different things.  I have no idea where you got that.

What the comparison referred to

Gee, wonder where I got it from...oh look at the next sentence.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

What the comparison referred to is that there was no new technology in Apollo, if your definition of "new technology" is a never before seen device or principle. 

Well, other then putting men on the moon, which was never done before.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

59 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

Tesla was rolling out OTA software updates to its entire fleet multiple times a year from 2012 and still does it today for millions of cars.  Other car companies are finally getting on board 12 years later. 

Yup, great software/technology company.

Vehicle quality has been a longstanding problem for Tesla.

[gowlerk 1,952]

4 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Well, other then putting men on the moon, which was never done before.

That would be a new accomplishment, not a new technology.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

17 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

That would be a new accomplishment, not a new technology.

I slotted it under the new principle. Nobody had used that technology to put a lunar lander together.

And however hard we want to fanboy Tesla, they aren't quite on that level. They execute somethings pretty well, like the technology and software part. They do some other things very, very poorly, like building an actual car that doesn't fall apart.

[BIGUN 1,100]

22 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

They do some other things very, very poorly, like building an actual car that doesn't fall apart.

Curious. Did you have a bad experience with Tesla? I'm asking cause the two ladies in my life are looking towards EV as their next purchase. Tesla being on the top of the list. Overall, a 97 NPS with pockets of pure pissed off at Tesla. 

Note: I have been keeping track on Consumer Reports and there's some "issues" that prevent us from taking the leap sooner than later. 

[SkyDekker 1,150]

4 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Curious. Did you have a bad experience with Tesla?

Nope. Just read enough articles about build quality concerns. tesla has a long history of blaming them on the drivers. Turns out they knew all along their parts were defective. Where I live I can't throw a rock without hitting a tesla, they are absolutely everywhere. Lots of people are happy with them it seems. But whenever I take a close look at them, I am not impressed with the quality of the actual product.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-musk-steering-suspension/

Tesla is in second last place in the JD Edward's reported problems per 100 vehicle category. With only Polestar performing worse. (and that is without the data from states where approval is required to approach buyers with the questionnaire, since Tesla refuses to provide such approval).

 

[jakee 1,274]

55 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I slotted it under the new principle. Nobody had used that technology to put a lunar lander together.

Georges Melies would beg to differ.

 

[SethInMI 146]

26 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Curious. Did you have a bad experience with Tesla?

I know you aren't asking me, and anecdotes aren't evidence, but my anecdotal experience fwiw:
bought Model 3 in Aug 2021
Initial QA:
missed small paint flaw near trunk, Tesla fixed with touch up paint (did terrible job, only saving grace very hard to see spot)
trunk closed with uneven sides (left higher than right, Telsa adjusted and I'm ok with it still off but hard to notice)
two interior plastic parts popped off, had to be re-snapped in place

Subsequent 3 years:
Tweeter in A Pillar died, was replaced
Charger port circuit board died so I couldn't charge, was replaced 

so I'm not out any $ for these issues, and I'm happy with the car, but yes initial QA is not great.

 

[billvon 2,466]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I slotted it under the new principle. Nobody had used that technology to put a lunar lander together.

Well, Russia tried before we did.  They failed.  (And that's a fascinating story in and of itself)

But yes.  It was existing technology put together in a new way.  The engines were just like a V-2's - but on a much larger scale.  The DSKY's were just like the SDS 92, but this time on a smaller scale.  The LM descent stage was just like the Surveyor lander, just on a larger scale.  The computer memory was just like the core memories of the day, just much smaller.

Putting that all together and getting humans to the Moon was a huge technological achievement, even though there wasn't any one thing on the vehicle that was based on a completely new principle/innovation.