EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

43 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I don't know the details of the Carvana sale.  I can only assume the current troubles are not known to them.

I don't know the process for selling to Carvana, but the buyer is at least sort of protected.
Any major issues have to be disclosed.
And anything that isn't ok when the car is delivered is supposed to get fixed. 

My neighbor bought a car from them and when it arrived, the brakes were shot. Worn out.
Carvana replaced them. Came, picked the car back up, fixed it and returned it.
It took a while, but they did it.

[gowlerk 1,912]

57 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I don't know the details of the Carvana sale.  I can only assume the current troubles are not known to them.

I can’t be sure what you mean by “the electric motor is dying “ but it’s hard to imagine that the computer monitoring it would not let a reasonably careful buyer be aware of any problem like that.

[airdvr 197]

Because it happened quickly. Maybe I’m wrong. I’ve never sold a vehicle to Carvana

[airdvr 197]

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

I can’t be sure what you mean by “the electric motor is dying “ but it’s hard to imagine that the computer monitoring it would not let a reasonably careful buyer be aware of any problem like that.

Rox said when she drove it this week the motor was not as quiet as she remembered. At one point it went completely dead.  She couldn’t get in because the door handles wouldn’t pop out. She did manage to open the trunk and magically it all came back. 

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

Rox said when she drove it this week the motor was not as quiet as she remembered. At one point it went completely dead.  She couldn’t get in because the door handles wouldn’t pop out.

Then it's not the motor.  It's more systemic.

[gowlerk 1,912]

2 hours ago, airdvr said:

Rox said when she drove it this week the motor was not as quiet as she remembered. At one point it went completely dead.  She couldn’t get in because the door handles wouldn’t pop out. She did manage to open the trunk and magically it all came back. 

It must need a hard re-boot. Or a couple hammer strikes.

[airdvr 197]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

Then it's not the motor.  It's more systemic.

Probably. I know zero about the systems 

[kallend 1,623]

The good ol' boys will like this - maybe:

Dodge on Tuesday announced that it delivered the "world's first and only electric muscle car" with the release of its lineup of new 2024 Dodge Charger sports cars.

The new Charger lineup features the electric 2024 Dodge Charger Daytona Scat Pack, which the company says delivers up to 670 horsepower and can go 0-60 mph in 3.3 seconds and ensures the Charger retains "its title as the world's quickest and most powerful muscle car." It also has the quickest quarter-mile elapsed time of muscle cars at 11.5 seconds and an estimated range of 260 miles.

Dodge also announced that the Charger lineup will include another all-electric model, the Charger Daytona R/T, which has 496 horsepower and an estimated 317 miles of range. The charging capacity runs at an estimated 8.1 miles per minute for the Daytona Scat Pack and 9.9 miles per minute for the Daytona R/T when using a 350-kW fast charger.

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

11.5 in the quarter mile?

I guess the Tesla doesn't count as a 'muscle car'.

The "Plaid" has done a quarter mile in less than 9 seconds.

In all seriousness, a sub-12 second quarter mile is really fast.

Unmodified ICE vehicles that can do that are pretty rare and very expensive.

[Stumpy 256]

8 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

4 Wheeled Unmodified ICE vehicles that can do that are pretty rare and very expensive

Fixed it for you. Just about any motorbike you can think of can run sub 12.
Some very cheap ones can run sub 10. Car drivers usually can't really conceive just how fast bikes are. 

Incidentally M4s and M5s can run sub 12 as well - i wouldn't group them in the rare/very expensive category - not cheap though, sure.

[billvon 2,400]

CHP shared a video showing a Tesla tractor navigating an icy, snowy road that defeated most other semis.  Note that the tractor is doing much better than the trailer, which is all over the place.

https://electrek.co/2024/02/07/tesla-semi-electric-truck-spotted-handling-closed-icy-road/

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

CHP shared a video showing a Tesla tractor navigating an icy, snowy road that defeated most other semis.  Note that the tractor is doing much better than the trailer, which is all over the place.

https://electrek.co/2024/02/07/tesla-semi-electric-truck-spotted-handling-closed-icy-road/

That same video is making the rounds on social media labeled as "Tesla truck runs of of power on icy road". In any case getting up the hill is about having enough traction. The EV is probably always near the weight limit on the drive tires because of the batteries. For some reason that video shows it coming to a stop. 

[ryoder 1,384]

10 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

11.5 in the quarter mile?

I guess the Tesla doesn't count as a 'muscle car'.

The "Plaid" has done a quarter mile in less than 9 seconds.

In all seriousness, a sub-12 second quarter mile is really fast.

Unmodified ICE vehicles that can do that are pretty rare and very expensive.

I assume by "muscle car" they are referring to the likes of Mustangs, Camaros, etc, which is silly since all the muscle cars have come with a variety of engines from economy to high performance. Examples I have owned:

1965 & 1966 Mustangs. 6 cylinders, 3-speeds. Not muscle cars.

1967 Camaro. 327 2-barrel carb. 2-speed Powerglide. Not a muscle car.

1970 Mustang Boss 302. 4-barrel carb, 4-speed. Muscle car.

1970 Barracuda. 6 cylinder, 3-speed. Not a muscle car.

[CygnusX-1 42]

On 3/6/2024 at 5:52 PM, ryoder said:

I assume by "muscle car" they are referring to the likes of Mustangs, Camaros, etc, which is silly since all the muscle cars have come with a variety of engines from economy to high performance. Examples I have owned:

1965 & 1966 Mustangs. 6 cylinders, 3-speeds. Not muscle cars.

1967 Camaro. 327 2-barrel carb. 2-speed Powerglide. Not a muscle car.

1970 Mustang Boss 302. 4-barrel carb, 4-speed. Muscle car.

1970 Barracuda. 6 cylinder, 3-speed. Not a muscle car.

I think they mean muscle car the same way as gun nuts/nazi/etc. talk about assault rifles. Does it "look" like one? It has nothing to do with the actual functionality.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:52 PM, ryoder said:

I assume by "muscle car" they are referring to the likes of Mustangs, Camaros, etc, which is silly since all the muscle cars have come with a variety of engines from economy to high performance. Examples I have owned:

1965 & 1966 Mustangs. 6 cylinders, 3-speeds. Not muscle cars.

1967 Camaro. 327 2-barrel carb. 2-speed Powerglide. Not a muscle car.

1970 Mustang Boss 302. 4-barrel carb, 4-speed. Muscle car.

1970 Barracuda. 6 cylinder, 3-speed. Not a muscle car.

Like so many things, "muscle car" is pretty subjective.

My understanding is that 'true' muscle cars are full sized sedans, with the biggest motor available. Although smaller motors (both 6 & 8 cylinder) were available, unless it had the big block V-8 it wasn't truly a muscle car.

Chargers & Road Runners, Impalas & Belvederes, GTOs (LeMans body), 442s & F-85s, Torinos & Galxies. Put a big V-8, the big 426 Hemi in the Mopars, and you have a 'muscle car'.
Stuff like Camaros, Mustangs, Barracudas, at least the earlier ones, were considered 'pony cars', not true muscle cars.

Another measure was what NASCAR was running. Road Runners, Chargers, Torinos, Impalas, Monte Carlos & Grand Prix (Prixes?) into the 70s. 

Camaros & Mustangs were running Trans Am road races. Sports car races. 

Again, very subjective and not any 'official' definition.

On 3/6/2024 at 2:48 PM, Stumpy said:

Fixed it for you. Just about any motorbike you can think of can run sub 12.
Some very cheap ones can run sub 10. Car drivers usually can't really conceive just how fast bikes are. 

Incidentally M4s and M5s can run sub 12 as well - i wouldn't group them in the rare/very expensive category - not cheap though, sure.

Good point. I have a 600 that could probably turn a sub 12 if I really tried. I choose to not beat on it that much, 

Still, just about any EV can take most ICE cars off the line.

The electric drive generates every available foot pound of torque from 1 RPM on up. 
Without any sort of torque curve, the power delivery is amazing.

I have a (reasonably) cheap little Bolt, and if I push on it, I can beat most cars when the light turns green.
It's also handy for passing on 2 lane roads. Swing out, hit it, and I can get around and back in super quick.

[brenthutch 383]

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/03/14/do-only-suckers-buy-evs/
 

“The Journal was highlighting a study from 2022 that, naturally, was ignored by the mainstream press at the time. What the study found was that “brakes and tires on EVs release 1,850 times more particle pollution compared to modern tailpipes.”

Why? Because EVs are as much as 30% heavier than gas-powered cars, which means more stress on their “regenerative” breaks and much faster tire wear.”

Who was it on this forum who accused me of nitpicking when I listed excessive tire wear as one of the drawbacks of EVs?

 

[lippy 771]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/03/14/do-only-suckers-buy-evs/
 

“The Journal was highlighting a study from 2022 that, naturally, was ignored by the mainstream press at the time. What the study found was that “brakes and tires on EVs release 1,850 times more particle pollution compared to modern tailpipes.”

Why? Because EVs are as much as 30% heavier than gas-powered cars, which means more stress on their “regenerative” breaks and much faster tire wear.”

Who was it on this forum who accused me of nitpicking when I listed excessive tire wear as one of the drawbacks of EVs?

 

How often you gotta replace them regenerative 'break' pads?  

 

[CygnusX-1 42]

3 hours ago, lippy said:

How often you gotta replace them regenerative 'break' pads?  

 

 

4 hours ago, brenthutch said:

“The Journal was highlighting a study from 2022 that, naturally, was ignored by the mainstream press at the time. What the study found was that “brakes and tires on EVs release 1,850 times more particle pollution compared to modern tailpipes.”

Why? Because EVs are as much as 30% heavier than gas-powered cars, which means more stress on their “regenerative” breaks...

 

I mean seriously Brent, do you even read/comprehend what you write?

I can only talk about myself here, but before I got an EV, I had a stick shift and I would down shift and use "engine braking" as much as I could. But even doing that it is in no comparison to what an EV does with regenerative braking. Typically, with my EV I do not even have to hit the brakes until I am at 5 MPH. Tesla Model 3/Y and maybe even new S/X can come to a complete stop without touching the brakes.

By you posting that "study" shows you know nothing about the functionality of an electric vehicle. It also shows how little the author of the study knows. That is probably why it was ignored by the "media" except for those with an agenda.

As far as tire wear goes, that has more to do with the way you drive than the weight of a car. My personal experience is that I can get the same wear on tires as my previous gas cars by taking it easy. But most of the time it is just too fun to take corners fast and accelerate fast so I accept the added tire wear. But even with that I'm averaging 40,000 mile tire replacement with summer "sport" tires.

But that is just one data point. I have not done a study of hundreds of people to get any additional data - other than being part of the EV community and seeing their stated performance.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

4 hours ago, lippy said:

How often you gotta replace them regenerative 'break' pads?  

 

The Chevy Bolt has a nifty thing called "One Pedal Driving" (OPD). Lifting off the accelerator pedal (I'm not going to call it the 'gas pedal') puts it into full regen. All the way to a complete stop.
There have been a couple anecdotal stories about accidents that were avoided because the car stopped incredibly fast. It's been suggested that OPD starts braking as soon as the accelerator comes up, so the delay between lifting and nailing the brake pedal doesn't factor in as much.

Since OPD doesn't use the brakes at all, the brake master, caliper pistons and caliper sliders don't see any use. So it's suggested putting the car in neutral and using the brakes to stop once or twice a week to keep things from getting gunged up and not moving.

Since I drive for a living, I don't use OPD. I want to keep the 'muscle memory' reflex of lifting off the accelerator, moving to the brake and slamming on the pedal for panic stops. 
But even the brake pedal goes into regen when pressed gently. There's a fair amount of pedal travel before the actual friction brakes become a factor.
My car had 16k on it when I got it. The inspection report said the brake pads were 'like new'.

[gowlerk 1,912]

Imagine that. Instead of turning inertia into heat we can turn it into electricity and store it in a battery. Just imagine if Jakes could make fuel.

[billvon 2,400]

6 hours ago, brenthutch said:

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/03/14/do-only-suckers-buy-evs/
 

“The Journal was highlighting a study from 2022 that, naturally, was ignored by the mainstream press at the time. What the study found was that “brakes and tires on EVs release 1,850 times more particle pollution compared to modern tailpipes.”

Why? Because EVs are as much as 30% heavier than gas-powered cars, which means more stress on their “regenerative” breaks and much faster tire wear.”

Who was it on this forum who accused me of nitpicking when I listed excessive tire wear as one of the drawbacks of EVs?

This could be even dumber than your post about how the Shockley-Quessier effect means that solar will never work.  Because it implies that gas cars have neither brakes (not "breaks") nor tires.  And that regen braking causes brake dust.  And that gas cars have regen braking that is less stressed.

You'd have to be a regular FOX News consumer to believe any of that.

[brenthutch 383]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

This could be even dumber than your post about how the Shockley-Quessier effect means that solar will never work.  Because it implies that gas cars have neither brakes (not "breaks") nor tires.  And that regen braking causes brake dust.  And that gas cars have regen braking that is less stressed.

You'd have to be a regular FOX News consumer to believe any of that.

Wall Street Journal not FOX News.
BTW the excessive tire wear and the associated pollution comes from the prodigious weight of the vehicles, which incidentally, results in more damage to infrastructure than their ICE counterparts.

[ryoder 1,384]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The Chevy Bolt has a nifty thing called "One Pedal Driving" (OPD). Lifting off the accelerator pedal (I'm not going to call it the 'gas pedal') puts it into full regen. All the way to a complete stop.

The guy who has the Youtube  channel "Technology Connections" has a Hyundai EV that he is pretty happy with, but was not happy when he discovered it never turns on the brake lights even during the hardest regen braking. For that reason he stopped using the hardest setting. I recently read that Hyundai has now implemented brake light activation in their regen braking.

Edited March 14 by ryoder

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

3 hours ago, ryoder said:

 ...but was not happy when he discovered it never turns on the brake lights even during the hardest regen braking...

Apparently, early Bolts did the same thing.

Mine turns on the brake lights if I lift using OPD, or if I pull the 'regen paddle', a lever on the back of the steering wheel that activates full power regen.

[olofscience 421]

16 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Wall Street Journal not FOX News.

Bill was saying that to believe, and regurgitate it here, you'd have to be...never mind.

And gas cars weigh nothing, eh?