USPA Raises Minimum Age to 18... Whatcha think?

[NWFlyer 2]

Based on a couple different posts on Facebook (from board members, as well as from Blue Skies Mag) it looks like USPA has voted to raise the minimum age to skydive to 18 across the board.

Thoughts?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Given the litigious nature of the US, the (overall) laws and interpretations of waivers for minors and the sensational nature of the media, it was probably inevitable.

Probably a knee-jerk reaction to the Oklahoma accident, but this has been coming for some time.

Of course, the Non-USPA DZs (Lodi & West Tennessee come to mind) don't have to follow the BSRs, but with this in place as a "best practice" their asses are even further out in the wind in case of a lawsuit.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[NWFlyer 2]

wolfriverjoe

Given the litigious nature of the US

What about USPA group members not based in the United States? According to the USPA site there are group members in 29 foreign countries (I don't have the patience to click on each country to see how many total foreign group members there are).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ChrisD 0]

Considering the ramifications of our modern society it's about time. The idea that "we" need to be fair to everyone, at the legal expense and potential cost to skydiving as a whole is long overdue. This was pointed out to the USPA in 2007, with the Report!!! They didn't listen, the reasons were a muddled pile of various opinions about the various states and the legal age of majority, and we need to be fair to everyone. This led to the rise of S/L jumps and other means to circumvent common sense, so that a very small minority of 16 year olds could jump. It was never about bending to the whims of the manufacturers as compared with protecting the majority.

I'm sure if a group of 16 year olds and their liberal lawyer parents want to jump they can get together and form their own association. But this protection to skydiving as a whole is the right thing to do, although I suspect it is a step in the right direction, it is not a guarantee nor will it be an absolute cure. Who were we protecting anyways? A handful of kids and their delusional and distant parents?? The risks were never worth it in the first place!

Skydiving is not safe.

"...all parachuting equipment is prohibited from use by minors,..." Period.

Just my two cents, for the last 40 years,...

Kudos for the USPA's attempts to take a decisive action rather than the tabling of an issue because they don't want to reach a consensus, ibid posthumously to be fair to everyone

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

NWFlyer

***Given the litigious nature of the US

What about USPA group members not based in the United States? According to the USPA site there are group members in 29 foreign countries (I don't have the patience to click on each country to see how many total foreign group members there are).

Don't know.
Those DZs don't benefit from the work that USPA does with the FAA either.

Perhaps the non-US DZs will be able to get waivers for this rule (pure speculation on my part).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[airtwardo 6]

It was coming - no denying that.

I do agree with it.


Sometimes I get the feeling we're still in a painful transitional stage from the 'old days' Jungle Rules just do it mentality, to the somewhat more $port of the Space Age image cultivated to attract a broader base of participantes.

Can't have it both ways - if Disneyland is where we're going, gonna have to make sure everybody is 'this tall' to go on the ride.

$tupid not to in $o many ways.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Amazon 7]

NWFlyer

Based on a couple different posts on Facebook (from board members, as well as from Blue Skies Mag) it looks like USPA has voted to raise the minimum age to skydive to 18 across the board.

Thoughts?

It seems that a board dominated by those who do not want to take the legal liability at THEIR dropzones.. so THEIR board spoke.. apparently with little or no debate.

[ChrisD 0]

Amazon

***Based on a couple different posts on Facebook (from board members, as well as from Blue Skies Mag) it looks like USPA has voted to raise the minimum age to skydive to 18 across the board.

Thoughts?

It seems that a board dominated by those who do not want to take the legal liability at THEIR dropzones.. so THEIR board spoke.. apparently with little or no debate.

Actually, this issue has been going on for a long time. I have heard this argument from a number of BOD's since the late 90's. But the actual debate, this time, I don't know how much time they spent on it, cause I wasn't there, perhaps as time permits some can comment on that. It is not really a individual DZ issue, IMO, and if you are taking the position that your supporting the minority view, it really is a minority view and considering the numbers of 16 year olds that actually jumped. Considering the risk to all jumpers, this really isn't a valid argument. So I take it that you supported the under 18 age crowd??? Once again this was about reaching a consensus to protect skydiving, NOT 16 year olds. I congratulate the USPA for taking a stand. Obviously we are going to have more than a few take up an opposing position, so I ask you this? Are you one of those 16, 17, year olds that feel as though your voice wasn't heard??? Cause ya know what, I haven't heard from any 16 year olds stating that the USPA ignored them over the years. In fact the USPA has bent over backwards for years to accommodate everyone! AT considerable risk! NOW when the clear majority wants to protect skydiving, you speak of domination???
This is the point. So perhaps next time you can enlighten us as to those "THEIR" you are referring to. Cause I certainly am not clear as to which DZ's and who you are referring too?
If your point is solely about what the Board discusses and the value of discussion, then I think that is a very valid and worthwhile observation. It can be very frightening and can easily lead to misinterpretation and misunderstandings thinking that way, that something took place without discussion. It is my understanding that not everything gets immediate public discussion. But it is also my opinion that this very issue had been discussed, and discussed again and again, for years,...
AND a large number of individual members have given their opinions to their respective USPA representatives. The USPA got it right this time, they clearly listened to the majority of concerned skydivers that want to protect skydiving from litigious individuals that want to make a fast buck in an uncertain world!
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Amazon 7]

Will everyone raise their hand that knows a dropzone kid raised on the dropzone who started their first jumps before the age of 16???

How about before the age of 18????

OH OH OH..... ME ME ME... I know both

[format 0]

Quote

Thoughts?

It's a shame they don't let this awesome 14 yr old jump

It's a shame they do let this 22 yr old moron jump

What goes around, comes later.

[NWFlyer 2]

NWFlyer

***Given the litigious nature of the US

What about USPA group members not based in the United States? According to the USPA site there are group members in 29 foreign countries (I don't have the patience to click on each country to see how many total foreign group members there are).

Clearly my question should have been more broad, not only referring to the Group Member DZs outside of the U.S., but also to the USPA rated instructors outside of the US.

Apparently the board (today) added an amendment that would allow USPA rated TIs in other countries to take tandems at an age that complied with the laws of that country. (The post I saw from a board member specifically referenced tandem instructors - not sure if it would apply to other instructors as well).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[SivaGanesha 2]

NWFlyer

What about USPA group members not based in the United States? According to the USPA site there are group members in 29 foreign countries (I don't have the patience to click on each country to see how many total foreign group members there are).

It specifically applies ONLY to USPA group members located in the US. Outside the US the lower limit will be 16:

http://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx#36995

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[chuckakers 370]

A 16 year old can get a pilot's license but not skydive?????

Does anyone know what prompted this?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[propblast 0]

chuckakers

A 16 year old can get a pilot's license but not skydive?????

Does anyone know what prompted this?

This was exactly what I was going to bring up...


Fear, fear prompted this.

Propblast

[skydived19006 4]

I wonder if a current 16, 17 year old licensed skydiver will be grandfathered in.

Is it now going to be breaking a BSR to allow a skydiver who is trained and potentially licensed to jump at a USPA Group DZ?

My Regional Director called last week asking for my opinion on this topic. I would have rather had it stand at 16, and would allow my sons when of that age, and possibly other children of licensed skydivers jump at 16 on a case by case basis. Now, we'd need to go bandit to make that happen.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[stratostar 5]

Yea pretty fucking stupid that the FAA say's it's legal for your 14 yr old to solo a sail plane.... and or become licensed for that type/class... but you can't let um jump out for sport cuz USPA says so.

Totally legal for said 14 to go out and do aerobatics in that sail plane at 14, have the wing fall off, be forced to bail out and that is all cool with the FAA, in fact the FAA mandates he must wear said parachute.... so it's only cool to save yer ass, but don't you dare do that for fun!

I started @ 16 FYI.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mark 102]

skydived19006

I would have rather had it stand at 16, and would allow my sons when of that age, and possibly other children of licensed skydivers jump at 16 on a case by case basis.

The practical effect of what you're saying here is that you'd allow an un-waivered person to jump at your dz.

Many waivers include additional named parties. The reason they are included is because they are partners in a dz.'s risk. I think it's okay to expose oneself to any amount of risk (by foregoing the protection of a waiver, for example), but not so much to expose riggers, pilots, aircraft owners and other folks.

Mark

[dzswoop717 5]

You can solo a powered aircraft at age 16. you need to be 17 to get your private license but, that is still under the age of 18. If you want to have your kids jump at age 16 go to a non uspa DZ and do it. USPA only governs group member DZ's. They are not the FAA and the FAA has no minimum age for skydiving. I agree that a 16 year old kid with no exposure to skydiving is a huge liability. I also know that when I made my first jump at the age of 16 I had been on a DZ for 12 years and was ready to start jumping. A skydiving parent probably knows if there child is mature enough to skydive.

[mark 102]

dzswoop717

You can solo a powered aircraft at age 16.

A number of posters have suggested an equivalence between making a first jump and soloing an aircraft. FAR 61.87 lays out the pre-solo training a student pilot is required to have. For an airplane:

Quote

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.

All practical work, not just classroom stuff.

I agree that a first jump is not so complicated as first solo. On the other hand, what exactly do we require in the way of practical demonstrations? And how well do our training simulators simulate actual conditions?

Mark

[Doug_Davis 0]

chuckakers

A 16 year old can get a pilot's license but not skydive?????

Does anyone know what prompted this?

I dont agree with the new rule and Chuck's post is why. Seems silly to allow 16 year olds to drive on the highway at 90 mph or fly planes but not skydive.

[MikeTJumps 4]

This effort has been ongoing for at least the last 6 years of BOD meetings with stalwarts on the BOD firmly opposed to raising the age limit to 18 or the age of legal majority in the four states that have higher age limits. However, many member of the USPA who are also members of the PIA came to the meeting and made their case as to the continual litigation liability of allowing under age (as in not being able to sign a binding legal release of liability [waver]) that would hold up in a court of law. There was a lot of give and take in the deliberation and I've been on both sides of this fence before, insisting 18 or the age of legal majority but when a major tandem manufacturer took his under age daughter on a jump, I backed down on the "18" requirement. However, as one of those people who is on retainer as an "expert witness" in the sport, I must agree that because of the inherent danger involved in the sport, we must make sure that "wavers" are enforceable. The Oklahoma incident is just another stone thrown through the window that got national attention by the news media. If we don't take a stand on the age requirement, what do you think will happen when some very powerful US Representative's or Senator's offspring get injured in a skydive? Can you say over-regulation will be imminent?

Yes, under age jumpers as of right now will be grandfathered in if they already have made a jump but they will be required to obtain an A license before 12/31/14 or else they will be ineligible to jump as USPA group member DZs. Yes, DZs can jump them with foreign equipment but the PIA manufacturers have taken a stand that they are going to publicize that their equipment is not to be used by anyone under the age of 18 in the US and its territories with the next publication of their manuals.

The PIA also asked for inclusion of Manufacturers, Dealers and Distributors of their gear be included in all DZ wavers as listed third parties to be somewhat protected from additional liability suits and that is something the the USPA will also be publishing to its group members.

No amount of money is going to be worth the life of a jumper, but in order for the industry to survive, some protection of it is needed. These are just two of the steps that are finally being made towards that end.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[nadominhoca 0]

Doug_Davis

***A 16 year old can get a pilot's license but not skydive?????

Does anyone know what prompted this?

I dont agree with the new rule and Chuck's post is why. Seems silly to allow 16 year olds to drive on the highway at 90 mph or fly planes but not skydive.

Seems silly to allow 16 year olds to drive on the highway at 90 mph or fly planes!!!!

[topdocker 0]

To make a BSR (S meaning Safety!) which has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with litigation is just ridiculous! The BOD is just showing how much they are willing to give into the manufacturers. Every time they have asked the BOD to do something, the BOD has eventually caved and its total BS. The BOD passed this once before and it was repealed because many BOD members became uncomfortable with the ramifications after the vote. What has changed? USPA is no more responsible for keeping manufacturers or DZ's from getting sued than they are preventing heart attacks at soccer games.

Members should start emailing their Regional Directors that this vote is totally screwed, too many of the BOD members have direct links to the requesting manufacturers for there to not be a conflict of interest.

Since electronic voting is working so well for USPA, maybe we should just put in a rule that all BSR's must be approved by a quorum of members. This will let the BOD go back to the business of running operations and allow the membership to dictate safety, not the manufacturers.

top

Jump more, post less!

[Boomerdog 0]

It's sad, but hard rules set in when people lose their sensibilities and transfer risk and responsibility to others when things either go bad or they screw up and hurt themselves.

For now, it's a good rule to protect both the sport and the industry. Perhaps in the future, a cultural change might occur where people take responsibility for themselves. Until such time, keep the rule in place and I take no pleasure in taking such a position.

[Southern_Man 0]

mark

***I would have rather had it stand at 16, and would allow my sons when of that age, and possibly other children of licensed skydivers jump at 16 on a case by case basis.

The practical effect of what you're saying here is that you'd allow an un-waivered person to jump at your dz.

Many waivers include additional named parties. The reason they are included is because they are partners in a dz.'s risk. I think it's okay to expose oneself to any amount of risk (by foregoing the protection of a waiver, for example), but not so much to expose riggers, pilots, aircraft owners and other folks.

Mark

waivers and their ability to be recognized and enforced is a state issue. there are states who do recognize the ability of parents to sign them for underage persons and will enforce them.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"