Christians don’t believe in Democracy

[jaybird18c 4]

38 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I have yet to see or hear God do ANY of the 'threatening'.

It's always the 'true believers'.

Deuteronomy 32:35

[jaybird18c 4]

3 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

However, that constitutional republic uses democratic elections to select most leaders. According to its constitution. If people who don’t share your religious and political values outvote your, is that valid? And what differentiates it from “mob rule?” Because sometimes they will  

Wendy P.

You can always move to another state which better represents your values. It's not perfect, but nothing is.

[winsor 204]

"In the beginning God created man.  Man, being a gentleman, returned the favor."

Clarence Darrow

[jaybird18c 4]

10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You may be a believer, but are you a true believer? There are many flavours of belief even within each of the major religions. God may not care but so many of Her children are willing to hate and even kill each other over theology. Religion can be quite a force for evil.

"And what sets a Christian apart from everyone else? This: You interview the orthodox Jewish man. Sir, if you died right now where would you go? I would go the way of the righteous. I would go to paradise. I would go to Heaven. Why? Because I love the law of God. I seek to obey the law of God. I seek to keep the law of God. I am a righteous man. You interview the Muslim: Sir, if you died right now, where would you go? I would go to paradise. Why? I love the Koran. I obey the Koran. I have made the pilgrimages. I give the alms. I say the prayers. I am a righteous man. Then you come to the Christian. Sir, if you died right now, where would you go? To Heaven. Why? And he begins to tell you something you don't understand. He says I was born in sin. In sin did my mother conceive me. I have broken every law of my God, and I deserve nothing before Him but His wrath, His justice. And you stop him and you say, "Sir, I don't understand." The other two men I understand. They are righteous men by their own deeds and thus they have earned Heaven for themselves. But you are contradictory. How are you going to get to Heaven if you claim no virtue or merit for yourself? And the Christian smiles and says, "I will go to Heaven based upon the virtue and the merit of Another, Jesus Christ my Lord." Now that's the doctrine of justification." - Paul Washer

[wmw999 2,242]

11 minutes ago, jakee said:

This is why you’ll never be able to persuade a non-believer of anything at all - you don’t even understand the terms of the conversation. Atheists don’t blame god for anything. If we did, we would be theists.

And it’s equally why an atheist doesn’t do much good telling a believer about their beliefs, either.

To me, the discussion of theology as an intellectual construct is just fine. As a discussion of what’s right and what’s wrong, that’s a little more arrogant — because it’s saying that a wise human knows God. And if God is as far from our plane as all of the divine scriptures make them appear, then we don’t know shit.

What I know is the amorphous mess that feels comfortable to me, and I know that’s all it is. 

Wendy P. 

[winsor 204]

1 minute ago, jaybird18c said:

"And what sets a Christian apart from everyone else? This: You interview the orthodox Jewish man. Sir, if you died right now where would you go? I would go the way of the righteous. I would go to paradise. I would go to Heaven. Why? Because I love the law of God. I seek to obey the law of God. I seek to keep the law of God. I am a righteous man. You interview the Muslim: Sir, if you died right now, where would you go? I would go to paradise. Why? I love the Koran. I obey the Koran. I have made the pilgrimages. I give the alms. I say the prayers. I am a righteous man. Then you come to the Christian. Sir, if you died right now, where would you go? To Heaven. Why? And he begins to tell you something you don't understand. He says I was born in sin. In sin did my mother conceive me. I have broken every law of my God, and I deserve nothing before Him but His wrath, His justice. And you stop him and you say, "Sir, I don't understand." The other two men I understand. They are righteous men by their own deeds and thus they have earned Heaven for themselves. But you are contradictory. How are you going to get to Heaven if you claim no virtue or merit for yourself? And the Christian smiles and says, "I will go to Heaven based upon the virtue and the merit of Another, Jesus Christ my Lord." Now that's the doctrine of justification." - Paul Washer

You attribute much to one of my cousins that is both unsupported and nonsensical.

[winsor 204]

 

Apparently atheist.

[jaybird18c 4]

17 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

And it’s equally why an atheist doesn’t do much good telling a believer about their beliefs, either.

To me, the discussion of theology as an intellectual construct is just fine. As a discussion of what’s right and what’s wrong, that’s a little more arrogant — because it’s saying that a wise human knows God. And if God is as far from our plane as all of the divine scriptures make them appear, then we don’t know shit.

What I know is the amorphous mess that feels comfortable to me, and I know that’s all it is. 

Wendy P. 

Neither I nor anyone else can convince someone to believe in God. Only God can do that. It requires a supernatural act on his part. However, God can and does use testimonies of others for his purposes. And I disagree with you that God is "far from our plane." He sent his Son to be with us (Emmanuel). He also sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in the hearts of the believer.

Edited August 26, 2023 by jaybird18c

[gowlerk 2,013]

34 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

"And what sets a Christian apart from everyone else? This: You interview the orthodox Jewish man. Sir, if you died right now where would you go? I would go the way of the righteous. I would go to paradise. I would go to Heaven. Why? Because I love the law of God. I seek to obey the law of God. I seek to keep the law of God. I am a righteous man. You interview the Muslim: Sir, if you died right now, where would you go? I would go to paradise. Why? I love the Koran. I obey the Koran. I have made the pilgrimages. I give the alms. I say the prayers. I am a righteous man. Then you come to the Christian. Sir, if you died right now, where would you go? To Heaven. Why? And he begins to tell you something you don't understand. He says I was born in sin. In sin did my mother conceive me. I have broken every law of my God, and I deserve nothing before Him but His wrath, His justice. And you stop him and you say, "Sir, I don't understand." The other two men I understand. They are righteous men by their own deeds and thus they have earned Heaven for themselves. But you are contradictory. How are you going to get to Heaven if you claim no virtue or merit for yourself? And the Christian smiles and says, "I will go to Heaven based upon the virtue and the merit of Another, Jesus Christ my Lord." Now that's the doctrine of justification." - Paul Washer

That you see this as truth revealed is just plain funny. Thanks.

[jaybird18c 4]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

That you see this as truth revealed is just plain funny. Thanks.

I'm here to amuse you. You're welcome!

[wmw999 2,242]

Jay, how do you reconcile the changes in science, knowledge, society, which make life as we know it today far less dangerous than it was, say, 2000 or 250 years ago, with a literal reading of either the Bible (which varies even from translation to translation), or the US constitution? The humans who wrote them down were limited by the knowledge and society of their world, just as we are by our world.

Wendy P. 

[JoeWeber 2,459]

12 hours ago, normiss said:

T'aint none. Never has been, never will be. For any of them.

And if you don't believe that and bow down to them, they will torture you for all eternity.

 

This threat is why I'll never believe. I've never threatened a believer with eternal torture.

Damn near every believer I've met has done that to every non-believer.

Keep your beliefs to yourself. Stop the veiled threats. Stop trying to force everyone to believe in your own personal insanities.

That's my belief. 

 

He doesn't have the proof for his beliefs, he never will. That's ok for him. I expect him to mock non-believers though.

Not so, he has a whole book filled with proofs. Deuteronomy 32:35, John 3:16, Floyd 2.0, it's all there for the believing. 

[JoeWeber 2,459]

1 hour ago, jaybird18c said:

He says I was born in sin. In sin did my mother conceive me.

This is the essence of the twisted Christian world view. 

[jaybird18c 4]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

This is the essence of the twisted Christian world view. 

He’s referring to original sin.

[lippy 832]

34 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

He’s referring to original sin.

I prefer extra crispy

[JoeWeber 2,459]

49 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

He’s referring to original sin.

He is stating that by command of a god no human is born innocent but instead are sin criminals; scapegoats for a supreme being who are further commanded to fix themselves before the penalty for simply coming into existence gets a whole lot worse. Furthering the misery is the knowledge that your sinful existence is a consequence of your mother engaging in perfectly natural activities that few amongst us have the will power to resist. Such twisted thinking is obvious nonsense to anyone not brainwashed to receive it as knowledge.

Edited August 26, 2023 by JoeWeber

[jakee 1,284]

2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

And it’s equally why an atheist doesn’t do much good telling a believer about their beliefs, either.

It is if you can point to an equally blatant and fundamental misunderstanding, but I don’t think there is one. It’s still totally pointless to try and change a true believer’s mind, but for different reasons. 

[jakee 1,284]

1 hour ago, jaybird18c said:

He’s referring to original sin.

No shit. That’s the essence of the twisted Christian worldview. You’re telling us that god doesn’t care in the slightest if we try and do right or wrong, only that we believe he exists. It’s kinda horrible.

[olofscience 438]

3 hours ago, jaybird18c said:

Don't blame God for your actions.

Then why are babies "tainted" with original sin? They had nothing to do with that shit.

And why is everyone blamed for a mythical guy's death at the hands of the Romans? Again, the Romans should take the blame for that shit. We don't crucify people anymore.

Edited August 26, 2023 by olofscience

[JerryBaumchen 1,168]

3 hours ago, jakee said:

No shit. That’s the essence of the twisted Christian worldview. You’re telling us that god doesn’t care in the slightest if we try and do right or wrong, only that we believe he exists. It’s kinda horrible.

Hi jakee,

I am no expert on religion for sure. 

However, this comment is directly opposite of what I was taught 60+ yrs ago:  Who has led a proper and pious life according to God's standard of righteousness, which is the one you will ultimately be judged by, one without even an once of selfishness, pride, covetousness, hatred, adultery, lies, etc.?

It was 1956 & I was taking a Bible Study class with my brother.  My brother spent his time in class chatting up the girls, I spent my time 'discussing' religion with the pastor.

I specifically remember him telling me that I could live a wild & crazy, sinful, wicked life, but, if I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior prior to my death, I would enter the Kingdom of God.

THAT is when I called it quits on the stupidity of it.

Different strokes for different folks.

Jerry Baumchen

[jaybird18c 4]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

He is stating that by command of a god no human is born innocent but instead are sin criminals; scapegoats for a supreme being who are further commanded to fix themselves before the penalty for simply coming into existence gets a whole lot worse. Furthering the misery is the knowledge that your sinful existence is a consequence of your mother engaging in perfectly natural activities that few amongst us have the will power to resist. Such twisted thinking is obvious nonsense to anyone not brainwashed to receive it as knowledge.

Joe, do you have to teach a baby, toddler, teenager to be selfish? You have to teach them to not be selfish, correct? It is 100% guaranteed that every single one of us will translate that original sinful nature into our own, without exception, with a lifetime of sinful actions, each of which becomes our responsibility. Of course, a baby or young person who doesn't know right from wrong yet isn't responsible and, therefore, accountable. They are still sinful. However, they are accounted for by God's grace.

And dude, original sin has nothing to do with sex. God created us. God designed sex. God designed sex for reproduction. He also created it to be pleasurable and enjoyed between a man and a woman. I have no idea where you get this nonsense otherwise.

[jaybird18c 4]

3 hours ago, jakee said:

No shit. That’s the essence of the twisted Christian worldview. You’re telling us that god doesn’t care in the slightest if we try and do right or wrong, only that we believe he exists. It’s kinda horrible.

That is definitely NOT what I'm saying at all. 

[jaybird18c 4]

3 hours ago, olofscience said:

Then why are babies "tainted" with original sin? They had nothing to do with that shit.

And why is everyone blamed for a mythical guy's death at the hands of the Romans? Again, the Romans should take the blame for that shit. We don't crucify people anymore.

When sin entered the world, it radically affected the nature of man and all of creation. From that point on, man's relationship with God was broken, disjointed, out of sync with God's perfect will. This is passed on from generation to generation. Nothing will ultimately be made right except by Jesus.

[JoeWeber 2,459]

8 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

And dude, original sin has nothing to do with sex. God created us. God designed sex. God designed sex for reproduction. He also created it to be pleasurable and enjoyed between a man and a woman. I have no idea where you get this nonsense otherwise.

Then why did you post this: "In sin did my mother conceive me" as if it were a truth of the Christian faith? Either it means that the act is sinful in and of itself or it is sinful because everything we do is sinful owing to our being made sinners before our eyes first saw light.

[jakee 1,284]

35 minutes ago, jaybird18c said:

That is definitely NOT what I'm saying at all. 

So in your anecdote you agree with the Jew and the Muslim?