41,000' HALO Oxygen Jump, Florida

[michaelmullins 81]

[ChrisHoward 8]

You get that little oxygen issue figured out this time? Or are you still running trial and error?

[sundevil777 99]

Even with the best oxygen system, are pilots allowed to fly at those altitudes for only a short time?  Doesn't this seem like an obvious question? 

[cdcollura 4]

Not cheap. But I'm all for this.

[gowlerk 2,114]

November 2 at almost exactly noon N321LH was at 41K over the Clewiston FL airport. I assume the jump happened, I hope all is well.

[skypilotA1 67]

10 hours ago, gowlerk said:

November 2 at almost exactly noon N321LH was at 41K over the Clewiston FL airport. I assume the jump happened, I hope all is well.

All is well! Official announcement to follow very soon!

[cdcollura 4]

On 11/2/2022 at 12:03 PM, gowlerk said:

November 2 at almost exactly noon N321LH was at 41K over the Clewiston FL airport. I assume the jump happened, I hope all is well.

Good morning,

Yes - They did it around 11:45 AM. I was not on it because I didn't want to basically "buy a car" for $15k (they had 4 jumpers) - For 3 minutes of free fall. The DZO there did it as well (state record too)!

Not cheap but great to hear about it. 

[skypilotA1 67]

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by skypilotA1

[alygator 2]

Also record for the more expensive commercial jump?

 

[sundevil777 99]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:57 PM, sundevil777 said:

Even with the best oxygen system, are pilots allowed to fly at those altitudes for only a short time?  Doesn't this seem like an obvious question? 

Is there a limitation?  Seems as though pilots know it can't be defended.

[wolfriverjoe 1,481]

4 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

Is there a limitation?  Seems as though pilots know it can't be defended.

There doesn't seem to be a rule.
I looked. If anyone can find an actual 'unpressurized aircraft altitude limitation' rule, I'd appreciate it.

I dug around a bit a while back, and it seems that unpressurized aircraft don't go much above 25k. It reads like it's a 'best practice' that everyone follows, rather than an actual FAR.

In general, nobody but the military goes above 50k. There's a bunch of different reasons for that.
The Concorde went up to 60k, but it had a few reasons for that. Less dense air meant it could go faster up higher. It was also able to do emergency descents (down to survivable altitudes in case of depressurization) faster than 'normal' airliners. 

[mark 107]

3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

In general, nobody but the military goes above 50k.

Glider record is a little over 74K, although pressurized.

[michaelmullins 81]

17 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

There doesn't seem to be a rule.
I looked. If anyone can find an actual 'unpressurized aircraft altitude limitation' rule, I'd appreciate it.

I dug around a bit a while back, and it seems that unpressurized aircraft don't go much above 25k. It reads like it's a 'best practice' that everyone follows, rather than an actual FAR.

In general, nobody but the military goes above 50k. There's a bunch of different reasons for that.
The Concorde went up to 60k, but it had a few reasons for that. Less dense air meant it could go faster up higher. It was also able to do emergency descents (down to survivable altitudes in case of depressurization) faster than 'normal' airliners. 

Citation X regularly flies at 51,000'

[wolfriverjoe 1,481]

1 hour ago, michaelmullins said:

Citation X regularly flies at 51,000'

Thanks for the correction.

So in general, nobody but the military and record attempts goes much above 51k.

[sundevil777 99]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Thanks for the correction.

So in general, nobody but the military and record attempts goes much above 51k.

The altitude when pressurized isn't important to this discussion.  

I have repeatedly brought this up because the description of the incident jump sounded like the pilot was impaired, which is not a surprise at that altitude.

[gowlerk 2,114]

18 minutes ago, sundevil777 said:

I have repeatedly brought this up because the description of the incident jump sounded like the pilot was impaired, which is not a surprise at that altitude.

Wrong thread and wrong forum.

[sundevil777 99]

15 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Wrong thread and wrong forum.

I understand that, but it has been shown that nobody should count on being coherent at 41k, no matter what type of oxygen system is available.  I'm asking what pilot guidance there is for unpressurized flight.  

[gowlerk 2,114]

18 minutes ago, sundevil777 said:

I understand that, but it has been shown that nobody should count on being coherent at 41k, no matter what type of oxygen system is available.  I'm asking what pilot guidance there is for unpressurized flight.  

I don't know about any guidance and there probably is none because there is very little reason to be that high in an unpressurized aircraft. There is no reason to think that the low ambient pressure and temperature can not be dealt with as long as appropriate measures and equipment are used. We do have reason to believe that on the first attempt the measures used were only partially successful. And it would appear likely that the problems have been addressed well enough that some better results have been achieved. Some information was given about the incident you are concerned with but there is no reason for you to expect more to be given here. This type of jumping adventure is at the edge of what is possible and comes complete with risks that are both known and unknown. Along with considerable cost. As long as the participants are fully aware, the FAA has no objections, and they are no longer offering tandems more power to them. I would not participate at any price and I recommend you don't either.

Edited December 26, 2022 by gowlerk

[sundevil777 99]

8 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

There is no reason to think that the low ambient pressure and temperature can not be dealt with as long as appropriate measures and equipment are used.

This is not true, even with the best oxygen delivery system.  Even you said it was at the edge of what is possible, because it isn't possible for us to expect to be coherent at those altitudes, even pilots.

[gowlerk 2,114]

2 minutes ago, sundevil777 said:

This is not true, even with the best oxygen delivery system.  Even you said it was at the edge of what is possible, because it isn't possible for us to expect to be coherent at those altitudes, even pilots.

The results speak for themselves.

[michaelmullins 81]

3 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

The altitude when pressurized isn't important to this discussion.  

I have repeatedly brought this up because the description of the incident jump sounded like the pilot was impaired, which is not a surprise at that altitude.

The pilot was not impaired, the pilot was monitored constantly by a pulse oximeter, and the same pilot has flown test and actual jump flights to 41,000' on many occasions while having to operate the aircraft within a 5 mile radius and maintain exact altitudes in this RVSM environment.  This pilot has likely more time at 41,000' unpressurized than anyone on the planet, could be wrong.  Also, oxygen saturation at 41K on 100%, pressure breathing  oxygen is actually higher that oxygen saturation on a normal jump from 15,000', which we have documented.

[sundevil777 99]

Is there guidance for pilots?  USPA says we ought to use a partial pressure suit above 40k, I remember you saying something about a military jumper limit is/was 43k.  What about pilots?

[JoeWeber 2,613]

4 hours ago, michaelmullins said:

The pilot was not impaired, the pilot was monitored constantly by a pulse oximeter, and the same pilot has flown test and actual jump flights to 41,000' on many occasions while having to operate the aircraft within a 5 mile radius and maintain exact altitudes in this RVSM environment.  This pilot has likely more time at 41,000' unpressurized than anyone on the planet, could be wrong.  Also, oxygen saturation at 41K on 100%, pressure breathing  oxygen is actually higher that oxygen saturation on a normal jump from 15,000', which we have documented.

Mike, anyone here who doubts your credentials or abilities is a fool. To set the matter straight are you willing to explain this flight profile from the fatality jump? If I have the wrong data my apologies, but if it's accurate I can see why some might conclude you were impaired.

Mullins N321LH flt path & graph.pdf

[sfzombie13 321]

looks like some zero g flight time to me.  why not for the price paid for the ride. 

[billvon 2,772]

20 hours ago, gowlerk said:

There is no reason to think that the low ambient pressure and temperature can not be dealt with as long as appropriate measures and equipment are used.

There are several reasons that low pressures cannot be dealt with (without pressurization.)  It's not an issue of not having the right procedures/equipment, it's a problem with Boyle's Law.