Liz Truss, UK Conservative

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, Bokdrol said:

Churchill, Thatcher and now Bojo,  the latter if you concentrate on the leadership aspect.

What was so great about Boris’ leadership? The very thing that made his own party (no Corbyn supporters there) boot him out was a failure of leadership. Nothing at all to do with policy, everything to do with failures in party leadership.

1 hour ago, Bokdrol said:

 Don't forget, the man who is often revered as the greatest of all POTUS', JFK, was a human being who had his peccadillos and would have struggled with today's sm and forensic press generation where even someone with one brain cell and a cellphone or a keyboard is an expert with a 'valid' pov.

What did JFK actually do that you think is so great? Was he genuinely good at running a country or are these people simply too blinded by charisma to look beyond it?

[Bokdrol 40]

46 minutes ago, jakee said:

What was so great about Boris’ leadership? The very thing that made his own party (no Corbyn supporters there) boot him out was a failure of leadership. Nothing at all to do with policy, everything to do with failures in party leadership.

What did JFK actually do that you think is so great? Was he genuinely good at running a country or are these people simply too blinded by charisma to look beyond it?

(1) Time will tell/is already telling. It's highly unlikely this current sh*tstorm would have occurred under Boris. And now many would have him back (2) Well, he saw off Khrushchev and his Cuban missiles for a start. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bokdrol

[Phil1111 910]

So like a true politician Liz has thrown her first body under the party bus. If you can't blame someone else for your personal stupidity. how can you be a politician.

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, Bokdrol said:

(1) Time will tell/is already telling. It's highly unlikely this current sh*tstorm would have occurred under Boris. And now many would have him back 

That’s because of policy. It is a fact that Boris Johnson’s fiscal policy was very different from Liz Truss’s new fiscal policy which has cause the current chaos.

That has nothing to do with leadership. The Conservative party booted Boris purely because he was a bad leader. Why do you disagree and why do you think his leadership was so great?

[Bokdrol 40]

43 minutes ago, jakee said:

That’s because of policy. It is a fact that Boris Johnson’s fiscal policy was very different from Liz Truss’s new fiscal policy which has cause the current chaos.

That has nothing to do with leadership. The Conservative party booted Boris purely because he was a bad leader. Why do you disagree and why do you think his leadership was so great?

Well, it's easy to say 'because of policy' blah blah and to not credit the leader, but the buck stops with the PM as Truss will find out sooner rather than later. The stuffed shirts on the benches got rid of him (and I've no doubt many are now regretting it) due to personal dislike of him, along with press and social media pressure to which they cravenly bowed.  Despite being a Europhile with strong personal European connections, he took us through Brexit, something that Cameron was too chickenshit to do, DC having himself opened up Pandora's box. Bojo also led us through the greatest pandemic since 1919 - but of course those with 20/20 hindsight will say, not very well. People look at his dishevelled buffoon-like persona and fail to see a razor-sharp brain and super intellect. Imho, one of our great leaders - someone who could converse with world leaders, not only on the same level, but often in their own languages.  People remember Churchill, Thatcher (even Julius Caesar who got it in the back but remains the one Roman Emperor we all recall) and in time they'll remember Boris Johnson as a once great leader too. To me one of the best endorsements of Bojo as a leader was Putin's joy at his fall, but Zelensky's dismay.  Says it all...

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bokdrol

[jakee 1,254]

28 minutes ago, Bokdrol said:

Well, it's easy to say 'because of policy' blah blah and to not credit the leader, but the buck stops with the PM as Truss will find out sooner rather than later.

Yes, because they’re two different things. You can have great policies and no leadership qualities, and you can have terrible policies and very strong leadership. Truss is devoid of both but that’s another matter.

31 minutes ago, Bokdrol said:

Bojo also led us through the greatest pandemic since 1919 - but of course those with 20/20 hindsight will say, not very well.

Exactly, he didn’t do it very well. He doesn’t get credit just for having happened to be there at the time.

Boris was booted by his own party because he was a bad leader. Think about it, how can you possibly be a great leader who can’t even stop the majority of your own MPs from rebelling against you?

More specifically, the straw that broke the camels back was the Pincher affair. First he tried to appoint a sex pest to a position of personal power over other MPs because he was a mate. Boris wasn’t strong enough to say no. Then he sent several of his own supporters out to tell a story to the press that he knew was untrue, and he had already started to backtrack on it while they were still in a taxi back from the TV studio. Publicly humiliating and backstabbing your own closest allies just to try and avoid some personal scrutiny is terrible leadership.

 

Then the rest of the straw which was partygate. Boris’ own story is that he had no idea what any of his employees were doing inside his own house even though his closest allies knew exactly what was going on. What kind of leadership is that?

[Bokdrol 40]

4 minutes ago, jakee said:

Boris was booted by his own party because he was a bad leader

Me Tory, you Labour - we'll never agree. Leave it at that. We'll see how new labour's champagne socialists fare after they get in. They can't do any worse, or can they...

[SkyDekker 1,121]

3 minutes ago, Bokdrol said:

Me Tory, you Labour - we'll never agree. Leave it at that. We'll see how new labour's champagne socialists fare after they get in. They can't do any worse, or can they...

Not on policy, but effective and strong leadership should transcend policy and should be able to be evaluated outside of party bias. However it would seem you equate leadership with policy and when a leader effects policy you align with they must be a strong leader. Like those who believe Trump must be very smart cause he appears to be very rich.

Edited October 14, 2022 by SkyDekker

[jakee 1,254]

2 hours ago, Bokdrol said:

Me Tory, you Labour - we'll never agree. 

The Tory party doesn’t agree with you, they booted Boris because he was a bad leader: 

[jakee 1,254]

Sacked Chancellor Kwasi Karteng has told the Times that booting him out has only bought Truss a few more weeks in office. I think he's being as optimistic there as he was with his mini-budget.

50-50 she's gone by Monday, 90-10 she's out by next weekend (and cue the party chairman frantically re-writing the rules so the Tory MPs can just crown Sunak immediately and have done with it).

[Bokdrol 40]

9 hours ago, jakee said:

Sacked Chancellor Kwasi Karteng has told the Times that booting him out has only bought Truss a few more weeks in office. I think he's being as optimistic there as he was with his mini-budget.

50-50 she's gone by Monday, 90-10 she's out by next weekend (and cue the party chairman frantically re-writing the rules so the Tory MPs can just crown Sunak immediately and have done with it).

We sit on other sides of the political fence and seldom if ever agree but in this instance, I do agree - other than the rule thing which I guess may be tongue in cheek. As I think I said earlier in this thread, the country now needs a change of ruling party. Enough is enough. Hopefully Labour will have learned from the dismal Tory performances of late and will make a decent fist of it. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for the press and sm experts to revert to type. 

[olofscience 420]

8 minutes ago, Bokdrol said:

Hopefully Labour will have learned from the dismal Tory performances of late and will make a decent fist of it.

Although some people in Labour are now getting worried that by the time the Tories hand over power, the economy would have been trashed so much that they'll get blamed for it.

Lots of FX traders predicting USD-GBP parity by November. Even with the last U-turn there's still a £42 billion gap in the budget. This will probably get worse before it gets better...

[Stumpy 256]

21 minutes ago, olofscience said:

Although some people in Labour are now getting worried that by the time the Tories hand over power, the economy would have been trashed so much that they'll get blamed for it.

That would happen even if they handed over power tomorrow. But like biden, if they keep working and improving things it gets harder and harder for the right to maintain that narrative 

[jakee 1,254]

3 hours ago, Bokdrol said:

We sit on other sides of the political fence and seldom if ever agree but in this instance, I do agree - other than the rule thing which I guess may be tongue in cheek. 

Nope. The last thing the party wants is the dog and pony show of a drawn out leadership contest which only serves to highlight the complete pigs ear they made of the one they just had.
 

So I genuinely don’t think there will be another members vote. The parliamentary party will pick Sunak and that will be it. Which until very recently was how these things were done anyway and is perfectly legal and normal, it’s only internal Conservative rules that ask for a members vote.

 

 

Bu the way, fresh out of Uni I actually worked for a year on the election campaign of a guy who is still a sitting Tory MP. What have you done to try and understand the other side?

Edited October 15, 2022 by jakee

[kallend 1,622]

13 hours ago, jakee said:

Sacked Chancellor Kwasi Karteng has told the Times that booting him out has only bought Truss a few more weeks in office. I think he's being as optimistic there as he was with his mini-budget.

50-50 she's gone by Monday, 90-10 she's out by next weekend (and cue the party chairman frantically re-writing the rules so the Tory MPs can just crown Sunak immediately and have done with it).

The question seems to be whether she will last longer than it takes a lettuce to wilt.

[jakee 1,254]

51 minutes ago, kallend said:

The question seems to be whether she will last longer than it takes a lettuce to wilt.

Kwarteng served the second shortest term as Chancellor in the modern era. And the other guy only managed to beat him by dying of a heart attack.

I’m not sure if Truss will set a record when she goes, but it’d have to be close.

[Phil1111 910]

The way the UK is going perhaps its time to just come out and call it little Italy.

-Populist politicians and politics.

-Borrow and spend like drunken sailors with debt piling up.Currency tanking.

-Governments flipping flopping and changing like bed sheets in a whorehouse.

[ryoder 1,381]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

The question seems to be whether she will last longer than it takes a lettuce to wilt.

How many Scaramuccis would that be?

[ryoder 1,381]

A depressing bit of news from NYT:

India recently overtook Britain as the world’s fifth-largest economy. It is the only one of the Group of 7 industrialized nations to have a smaller economy now than it did before the pandemic. The recent turmoil has earned it the dubious distinction of replacing Italy as the major cause of concern at G7 finance meetings.

Source: For Truss and the Tories, a ‘Fairy Tale’ Unravels

[Phil1111 910]

14 minutes ago, ryoder said:

A depressing bit of news from NYT:

India recently overtook Britain as the world’s fifth-largest economy. It is the only one of the Group of 7 industrialized nations to have a smaller economy now than it did before the pandemic. The recent turmoil has earned it the dubious distinction of replacing Italy as the major cause of concern at G7 finance meetings.

Source: For Truss and the Tories, a ‘Fairy Tale’ Unravels

Not unexpected, sort of old news:

[kallend 1,622]

How about choosing a PM who did not attend Oxford. 

[jakee 1,254]

On 10/16/2022 at 1:22 AM, kallend said:

How about choosing a PM who did not attend Oxford. 

I thought you might have got what you wanted already given that Jeremy Hunt is now PM in all but name but no, Magdalen College Oxford I'm afraid.

But seriously this morning's events are seismic. Unprecedented. I don't think the country has seen anything remotely like it. The new Chancellor has scrapped almost every single measure in the mini-budget (which was Liz Truss's core mission statement representing her central political beliefs) except for lifting the cap on banker's bonuses. He has even rolled back the scope and duration of her energy bill support plan (calling it irresponsible) when the energy support plan was the one thing she pointed to as an unqualified success over and over and over again in response to any criticism of her mini-budget. This after reports that his meeting with her over the weekend dissolved into a screaming match - which he evidently won.

A Tory MP on a BBC discussion panel was just asked if Liz Truss should step down and he said what was needed was to give Jeremy Hunt some time to see if his new measures work, and we should give Jeremy Hunt the space to develop his new economic policies. He didn't mention Liz Truss once partly because he knows she's not really in charge and partly because he knows the mere mention of Liz Truss being involved in future economic policy risks scaring the markets into another meltdown. Every official public statement since Truss ran from the stage on Friday after sacking Kwarteng has been made by Hunt while Truss is in hiding. It's incredible.

 

The whole thing makes Trump's administration look competent - and they tried to make a virtue out of having no idea how to run a government. It's kinda like Trump's attempted Muslim ban, but that was a small part of immigration policy that was immediately blocked by the courts. This is core economic policy that was blocked by her own government. Satire must be dead now - what can anyone say that's more absurd than the truth?

[Stumpy 256]

57 minutes ago, jakee said:

makes Trump's administration look competent

steady on old chap.

[Phil1111 910]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

...The whole thing makes Trump's administration look competent ...

 

36 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

steady on old chap.

Agree, she is like a first grader compared to trump. But defiantly from the same school.

[ryoder 1,381]

It is too bad that "Yes, Prime Minister" is no longer being produced. The Truss administration could provide sooo much material!