How EV's ruined my weekend

[billvon 2,426]

(to use the now famous claim from the Australian PM, who claimed EV's would "end the weekend." )

We drove from San Diego to Trinidad, CA to spend a week in the redwoods - about 800 miles total.  We planned to make the drive in two days since we had an 8 year old and a 10 year old.  Our car is a 7 year old Tesla which is still good for about 260 miles on a charge (it was 300 new.)

So I spent an hour planning where we would stop to minimize charge time - two stops on the first leg and one stop on the second.  I even brought a folding bike in case I had to drop the kids and Amy off at a restaurant, go somewhere to charge and then ride the bike to them.

All for naught.  It turns out the kids bladders are the limiting factor and not the availability of chargers.  There are enough chargers out there so I could say "OK hold it for 15 minutes" and then find a charger to stop at while they peed (and looked at cows, and ran down steep hills, and all the usual things kids do when they get out of the car after being in it for two hours.)

The original plan had us stopping for a total of about an hour to do the charging (three 20 minute stops) - but we ended up stopping for closer to 3 hours total to accommodate the kids.  We never waited for charging; by the time the kids were done we had enough to continue.

[JoeWeber 2,325]

9 minutes ago, billvon said:

(to use the now famous claim from the Australian PM, who claimed EV's would "end the weekend." )

We drove from San Diego to Trinidad, CA to spend a week in the redwoods - about 800 miles total.  We planned to make the drive in two days since we had an 8 year old and a 10 year old.  Our car is a 7 year old Tesla which is still good for about 260 miles on a charge (it was 300 new.)

So I spent an hour planning where we would stop to minimize charge time - two stops on the first leg and one stop on the second.  I even brought a folding bike in case I had to drop the kids and Amy off at a restaurant, go somewhere to charge and then ride the bike to them.

All for naught.  It turns out the kids bladders are the limiting factor and not the availability of chargers.  There are enough chargers out there so I could say "OK hold it for 15 minutes" and then find a charger to stop at while they peed (and looked at cows, and ran down steep hills, and all the usual things kids do when they get out of the car after being in it for two hours.)

The original plan had us stopping for a total of about an hour to do the charging (three 20 minute stops) - but we ended up stopping for closer to 3 hours total to accommodate the kids.  We never waited for charging; by the time the kids were done we had enough to continue.

What about those of us, unlike you and Elon who are hell bent on overpopulating the world with solar customers, who don't have kids to make EV's work? Will we get subsidies or maybe Kid Kredits? 

[kallend 1,646]

Plenty of charging opportunities in the Chicago area.

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/277888-ev-nightmare-trip/?do=findComment&comment=4982110

 

[Phil1111 913]

12 hours ago, billvon said:

(to use the now famous claim from the Australian PM, who claimed EV's would "end the weekend." )

... We never waited for charging; by the time the kids were done we had enough to continue.

What if anything did you pay for charging? In the course of a month what is paid for charging aside from home solar? thx

[kallend 1,646]

2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

What if anything did you pay for charging? In the course of a month what is paid for charging aside from home solar? thx

At the school where I am emeritus prof, charging is free and powered by a large solar array on the roof of a building.

[Phil1111 913]

4 minutes ago, kallend said:

At the school where I am emeritus prof, charging is free and powered by a large solar array on the roof of a building.

That would be an exception. But I'm wondering if a person can travel about on the free charging stations.

[billvon 2,426]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

What if anything did you pay for charging? In the course of a month what is paid for charging aside from home solar? thx

We got our Tesla during the time that charging was free.  We charged overnight at an EVGo station at one point, and a full charge cost about $9.00.

[SethInMI 146]

6 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

What if anything did you pay for charging? In the course of a month what is paid for charging aside from home solar? thx

For those unlike Bill who have to pay for the DC fast chargers (Tesla calls them Superchargers) it is on par with gas costs. $0.43 per kWh around me, which is close to $4 per 30 miles hence the on par with gas comparison. My home rate is about 1/4 of that, so excluding long trips I would pay about $1 per 30 miles.

Edited August 15, 2022 by SethInMI

[JoeWeber 2,325]

6 hours ago, kallend said:

At the school where I am emeritus prof, charging is free and powered by a large solar array on the roof of a building.

Is it actually free for professors emeritus or did someone pay for the system and comp you because you're so lovable.

[kallend 1,646]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Is it actually free for professors emeritus or did someone pay for the system and comp you because you're so lovable.

Yes.  

And for anyone else in the visitors' lots.

[Phil1111 913]

10 hours ago, kallend said:

Yes.  

And for anyone else in the visitors' lots.

In Canada all the parking spots for professors are electrified at universities. For block heaters.

[JerryBaumchen 1,062]

Hi folks,

Looks like Chrysler Corp has seen the handwriting on the wall:  Dodge discontinuing gas-powered muscle cars – The Hill

And with the Ford Lightning taking over for the F-150, where will the 'real men' go?

Jerry Baumchen

[ryoder 1,397]

2 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

Looks like Chrysler Corp has seen the handwriting on the wall:  Dodge discontinuing gas-powered muscle cars – The Hill

And with the Ford Lightning taking over for the F-150, where will the 'real men' go?

Jerry Baumchen

I'm going to make a fortune with my new invention: a coal-rolling device for electric trucks!

[billeisele 122]

Be glad you aren't replacing batteries in a Volt. $30 grand is crazy. It's a hybrid so no telling the actual cost per mile for the battery.

Assuming an electric cost of 15 cents/kWh. gas cost of $2.50/g, gas 30 mpg, an 18 kWh battery, 2nd generation Volt range of 53 miles/charge, then...

If all miles were on electric the cost to charge would be $3,600. That makes the cost per mile 0.47 cents.

If all miles were on gas the cost would be $5,900. 60% higher than electric. No telling what the gas engine maintenance costs would be but at that low mileage one would think just oil changes and maybe some fluid changes. At $35 / oil change and assuming a radiator flush, maybe $600 ish.

It won all kinds of awards. The car guys said, "According to Edmunds.com, the price premium paid for the Volt in 2012, after discounting the US$7,500 U.S. federal tax credit, takes a long time for consumers to recover in fuel savings, often longer than the normal ownership time period." Doubt that analysis included the battery replacement cost.

Luckily, the EV's have improved but the prices are much higher and the battery cost thing is still there. We'll see how this goes.

[gowlerk 1,923]

22 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Be glad you aren't replacing batteries in a Volt. $30 grand is crazy. It's a hybrid so no telling the actual cost per mile for the battery.

Assuming an electric cost of 15 cents/kWh. gas cost of $2.50/g, gas 30 mpg, an 18 kWh battery, 2nd generation Volt range of 53 miles/charge, then...

If all miles were on electric the cost to charge would be $3,600. That makes the cost per mile 0.47 cents.

If all miles were on gas the cost would be $5,900. 60% higher than electric. No telling what the gas engine maintenance costs would be but at that low mileage one would think just oil changes and maybe some fluid changes. At $35 / oil change and assuming a radiator flush, maybe $600 ish.

It won all kinds of awards. The car guys said, "According to Edmunds.com, the price premium paid for the Volt in 2012, after discounting the US$7,500 U.S. federal tax credit, takes a long time for consumers to recover in fuel savings, often longer than the normal ownership time period." Doubt that analysis included the battery replacement cost.

Luckily, the EV's have improved but the prices are much higher and the battery cost thing is still there. We'll see how this goes.

The explanation of that price is here.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/08/30/fact-check-dealer-gave-30-000-estimate-replace-volt-battery-electric-car-hybrid/7935230001/

Basically that battery is a hard to source obsolete part. Most EV batteries are far cheaper. The whole thing is a just an FB/social media slam.

[grimmie 177]

My fellow retired firefighters are all melting down over the new EV fire trucks.

I can imagine how the old timers felt when gasoline powered rigs replaced horse drawn steam pumpers.

 

Its going to be exciting to see the progress of technology in the next few years for all sorts of vehicles, including aircraft.

[SethInMI 146]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Luckily, the EV's have improved but the prices are much higher and the battery cost thing is still there. We'll see how this goes.

My Tesla battery has a 10 year 120k mile warranty, so I don't think I have to concern myself with replacement, but I have given the problem some thought in case I do keep it for a while.

I think battery replacement will continue to be very expensive for a long time, and hopefully bundling an extended warranty into an Auto policy will be a common thing, as insurance is the best way to handle costly and rare events like battery failure.  

[billvon 2,426]

12 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

I think battery replacement will continue to be very expensive for a long time

Dealer replacements will be.  However, the EV market will soon take the same path that the hybrid market took, and outside companies wil offer rebuilds for far less money.

The big problem now is that there is such a demand for batteries that the demand alone is driving up the price - whether the battery is new or used.  And car manufactuers have a strong incentive to keep the price on their cars low, but much less to ensure replacement batteries are cheap.

[SethInMI 146]

28 minutes ago, billvon said:

However, the EV market will soon take the same path that the hybrid market took, and outside companies wil offer rebuilds for far less money

I hope so. Tesla I am sure will try to fight that, and with their structural pack they may have an advantage, for all I know patents and trade secrets could be on their side. But even if they price drop by an order of magnitude, they will still be expensive to replace.

[billvon 2,426]

Just now, SethInMI said:

I hope so. Tesla I am sure will try to fight that, and with their structural pack they may have an advantage, for all I know patents and trade secrets could be on their side. But even if they price drop by an order of magnitude, they will still be expensive to replace.

GM's Ultuim system (the EV battery system they are going to) will allow replacement of individual modules.  Nissan makes it moderately easy to replace cells.  Tesla makes it hard.  But they won't be the #1 game in town for long.

[gowlerk 1,923]

3 hours ago, grimmie said:

My fellow retired firefighters are all melting down over the new EV fire trucks.

I can imagine how the old timers felt when gasoline powered rigs replaced horse drawn steam pumpers.

 

Its going to be exciting to see the progress of technology in the next few years for all sorts of vehicles, including aircraft.

All electric? Even the pumps?

[JerryBaumchen 1,062]

30 minutes ago, billvon said:

GM's Ultuim system (the EV battery system they are going to) will allow replacement of individual modules.  Nissan makes it moderately easy to replace cells.  Tesla makes it hard.  But they won't be the #1 game in town for long.

Hi Bill,

As your post shows, the EV battery thing is all over the place now.

IMO, hopefully, the design will stabilize and the same batteries can be used in many brands of cars; if not all.

I saw a Tesla video about driving into a facility where they just dropped the battery(s) out the bottom & exchanged them for newly charged batteries.

Just think how simple that would be if the batteries were of a common design and you were on a long trip.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[gowlerk 1,923]

34 minutes ago, billvon said:

Tesla makes it hard.  But they won't be the #1 game in town for long.

Yes, they are now and will continue to be a niche brand in the overall automobile market. But that doesn't mean EVs won't be dominant soon.

[billeisele 122]

2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

As your post shows, the EV battery thing is all over the place now.

Just think how simple that would be if the batteries were of a common design and you were on a long trip.

Jerry Baumchen

 

Jerry - I'm wondering if the EV battery thing will be similar to valuing an AAD with a fixed life. If batteries are 75% towards end of life the replacement cost would be factored into the car value.  

[SethInMI 146]

2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I saw a Tesla video about driving into a facility where they just dropped the battery(s) out the bottom & exchanged them for newly charged batteries.

That may have been there older design, or for the Tesla Semi? But the latest design, used in the Model Y and assuming to be used in other designs going forward, has a structural battery pack. The car is basically two large castings front and back, tied together by the battery pack itself (the front seats mount to the top of the battery). It saves a lot of weight and makes manufacturing simpler, but replacing it is a apparently a bitch.

https://electrek.co/2022/05/20/tesla-structural-battery-pack-removable/