international standard way of doin stuff.......

[yvanpec 1]

Hi all.

So I passed my A license in the US. But I live in Switzerland, and the French border is only 10 minutes away.

It is a nightmare to figure out what DZ needs what in terms of experiences and licenses. The french told me they dont care about my A license and I am gonna have to do coach jumps to be able to jump there. The swiss say since I am a swiss citizen I MUST pass my Swiss license. I am sure that if I only had my Swiss license, both the French and Americans would give me crap.

Why doesnt the USPA, the french, the swiss, the germans etc etc etc all sit down and decide on a standardized, internationaly recognized license training ?

this baffles me.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[monkycndo 0]

Each location wants your money.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[stayhigh 2]

You guys use meters and we use feets.

We can't even get this one simple concept standardized across the globe.

Who can tell me how many inches in a half mile on top of their head?

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[kuai43 7]

stayhigh

You guys use meters and we use feets.

Who can tell me how many inches in a half mile on top of their head?

There are those countries which use metric. And there's the one which landed a man on the moon.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[yvanpec 1]

I was told that the global standard in aviation was feet and not meters.

I get your point, but france and switzerland both use the metric system and yet they do everything differently. Even the AFFs can't be compared.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[pchapman 262]

Everyone has their owns systems and standards to protect!

Can't let someone "get away with" missing one requirement or other by sneaking off to another country.

Typically international visitiors get a lot more slack, as most countries licences are FAI recognized and thus broadly similar. There was some rough standardization done a decade or so back,although at the low license levels differences are more likely to significantly affect jumper skills. (But I recall Switzerland is very different than the somewhat standardized A, B, C, D.)

But if you're Swiss or live there permanently, then you have to play by their rules.

You would likely need to write a Swiss test, to show you know local rules and regs, some of which might be national aviation laws and not just a voluntary sporting body's.

That seems fair enough. The trickier bit is experience -- hopefully some of your experience can be recognized, that all sorts of training and coaching jumps still count. If you need to show you've done X, hopefully if X is in your log book and signed by an instructor then you're ok.

(Even between the US and Canada that sort of thing is an issue, for example. If a Canadian student gets some coaching down south in the US during the winter, unless those jumps are signed off by a Canadian coach, they don't count towards the licence. That's why Canadian students often meet up with Canadian instructors going south or go to a DZ with a few expatriate Canadian instructors to get signed off.)

[Andy9o8 0]

monkycndo

Each location wants your money.

This. The rest is just rationalization.

[yvanpec 1]

I felt I received very good training in the states, but again, i havent done it anywhere else so i cant really judge. From what I understand, the DZ is also known for it's cool vibes and friendlyness, so maybe I have started somewhere friendly and about to go somewhere different, which I am sure will be hard to adjust to.

France has ABCD licenses, and sub Bs and Cs i think. Takes 50 jumps with 7 coach jumps to be able to do group jumps. In this case, I would understand I d have to show proeffiency to an instructor since I "only" have an A license.

In switzerland, there is almost no online resources to study. I have "heard" that after around 50 jumps, or whenever the student "feels comfortable", whatever that means, the student can take a test and obtain a Swiss skydiving license, which is basically the one and only.....

It's all disturbing haha

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[stayhigh 2]

I would start base jumping long ago, if US had same regulation as UK.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

In additon to the quite accurate comment about the various agencies wanting your money, there are cultural issues that play into this.

In the US a real, but unstated, purpose of the USPA is to provide the illusion of regulation. By having a system of voluntary regulation we keep the govenment agencies out of our sport. By having our system of voluntary regulation be very loose, we let the jumpers do pretty much what they want. That is just the way we like it.

Even when the US government has gotten involved in regulating jumping, the rules have been almost exclusively about protecting OTHER folks from jumpers. With the exception of rules about the reserve parachute system or tandem jumps, I can't think of any FAA rules that are about protecting the jumpers.

Some other countries seem to have differing cultural attitudes about controling jumpers and protecting jumpers from themselves.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[JohnMitchell 14]

GLIDEANGLE

In the US a real, but unstated, purpose of the USPA is to provide the illusion of regulation. By having a system of voluntary regulation we keep the govenment agencies out of our sport.

Even when the US government has gotten involved in regulating jumping, the rules have been almost exclusively about protecting OTHER folks from jumpers.

Very true stuff, and why I pay my USPA dues, to keep the govt. off my back as much as possible. If you look at the FARs, there is no rule requiring any jumper to open either parachute. You are just not allowed to bounce on a taxpayer.

[yvanpec 1]

JohnMitchell

***
In the US a real, but unstated, purpose of the USPA is to provide the illusion of regulation. By having a system of voluntary regulation we keep the govenment agencies out of our sport.

Even when the US government has gotten involved in regulating jumping, the rules have been almost exclusively about protecting OTHER folks from jumpers.

Very true stuff, and why I pay my USPA dues, to keep the govt. off my back as much as possible. If you look at the FARs, there is no rule requiring any jumper to open either parachute. You are just not allowed to bounce on a taxpayer.

Yeah I was kinda surprised how the staff put equal amount effort in me having fun as well as me being safe. I mean, I like safety, but I have hung out at DZs in france where people were straight up dicks.

Difference is, french DZs are held accountable for anything that would happen to you.....but fuck, I picked up this sport to have fun, not to get yelled at and be treated like crap because I don't have 12456 jumps.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[JerryBaumchen 1,060]

Hi kaui,

Quote

And there's the one which landed a man on the moon.

According to one of my college professors ( who worked on the Apollo program ), all US space projects are in metric.

Jerry Baumchen

[kuai43 7]

JerryBaumchen

Hi kaui,

Quote

And there's the one which landed a man on the moon.

According to one of my college professors ( who worked on the Apollo program ), all US space projects are in metric.

Jerry Baumchen

Not quite 'all', it seems.
Someone didn't get the memo..
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

http://www.space.com/3332-nasa-finally-metric.html

And this wiki has an interesting part about the woman who was the lead software engineer for Apollo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[councilman24 36]

Europe tried to agree on parachute rigger licensing standards but the effort fell through because they couldn't agree. The French were in the PIA Parachute Certification Standards committee until they left in frustration that they couldn't get their way. Some ideas were okay, some were crazy.

Standardization never going to happen.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,060]

Hi kuai,

Quote

Someone didn't get the memo..

I remember that little problem.

I should have said: "all US space projects are supposed to be in metric. "



Jerry Baumchen

[galispo 0]

I did my AFF in Italy (meters), now I live and jump in the UK (feet). Sold my first altimeter and bought one in feet. Not a big deal to do this conversion.

It's like developing the concept of distance using Km. Once you learn that 100Km is roughly an hour drive on the motorway, it gets easier. Don't keep trying to calculate the conversion, but create a new concept. If you deploy at 4000 feet, you will also deploy at 1200 meters.

To the OP:

Can't you just do a check jump to get a FAI A licence?

You shouldn't have problems in jumping in France or Switzerland. If the Swiss just asked for a check jump, that's fair, but if you've got your FAI licence, they can't deny you're a A licence jumper.

Both Italy and UK are under FAI regulations, hence my licence was recognised in UK without a problem. The only thing is, in the UK there is a very systematic control of progression for beginners (FS1, FF1, etc), but the FAI licence is the same.

Rob Gallo
"To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."

[stayhigh 2]

You guys jump at 4
We pull at 4.

You guys pull at 1.5
We cutaway at 1.5

We all smack at 0.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[riggerrob 558]

"... There was some rough standardization done a decade or so back,although at the low license levels differences are more likely to significantly affect jumper skills. ...

......................................................................................

That attempt at standardization was led by (CSPA past president) Harro Trempano. CSPA adopted his standards, but every other country needed to adjust the standards to satisfy their own egos.
Sure a few grumpy old men were able to protect their own privileges, but they made life difficult for hundreds of young jumpers.

Eric Fradet also tried to convince Europeans to adopt a common standard for certifying riggers, but AGAIN, too many grumpy old me were too busy protecting their privileges. I have trained riggers for Canadian, American and Swiss licences and cannot see the PRACTICAL difference in working standards.

[faulknerwn 37]

I would love to hear what was the crazy stuff!

[councilman24 36]

Crazy at the time but maybe not so crazy now.

This was in the middle of the 'mystery bulk' issue. Manufacturers were making more tailored and smaller rigs. Jumpers wanted the largest reserve that would fit in the smallest container.

The French wanted a definitive, comprehensive, and exclusionary list of what make/model/size reserve would fit in what make/model/size of container. In other words each container manufacturer would have to publish a list of reserves that WOULD fit in each container size, and these would be the ONLY reserves that could be put in these containers.

The problem of course is canopies can vary by +/- 10% and container can vary also, lets say +/- 10% although its harder to measure the volume of an individual container. So if you have a 'big', +10 reserve canopy and a -10 container the reserve may vary well not fit at all. But if you have the same makes/model/sizes but have a -10 canopy and a +10 container it may fit easily and well. But to the French they wanted a the list to 'guarantee' that a particular reserve would fit (function) in a particular container. Anybody that has rigged for very long knows that the worst customer is the one that orders the biggest canopy in the smallest possible container. While not a dealer I've had customers have to send back rigs that simply wouldn't hold the same canopy that worked for the last one ordered at the DZ.

So in order for this list to work it would have had to prohibit any reserve canopy where an individual specimen might have been too big for any individual specimen container of a particular size. This was good in theory but impractical in the real world.

BUT, in light of events of the last 10 years maybe they were right. This discussion was at least 10 years ago, maybe longer. If such a list were mandated manufacturers would have to limit there list to probably one size canopy smaller than usually fits just to cover the combination that didn't. At the time all around the table except the French were willing to trust the riggers to determine the final size compatibility of a particular set of gear. Maybe misplaced trust in some cases. And of course some manufac. still don't publish volume data in part so that some customer doesn't say "you said it would fit!"

As I understand it, and someone please correct me if needed, the French government itself does the certification testing for all the French made gear. So with that control they could more easily impose such conditions.

Another proposal was that all harness structural testing be done on a static table designed to hold and pull on the harness in to destruction in several configurations. Again, the French government had such a fixture and used it. To my knowledge none existed in this country (at least in the industry) that could anchor and pull on multiple points (two leg straps, four risers in various percentages, loaded chest straps) at that time. I don't know about now. Also at that time most reserves were still C23-b (even though c was out and d was brand new) and forces generated by reserves were not known/published for most/many. Again, this may not have been a bad idea but more easily implemented by a government funded testing organization.

Any one know if any one has such a fixture, 2D, maybe even 3D, with multiple anchors and instrumented tension points? Military, NASA, parachute or other industry?

Again, it may be a good idea.

I think they wanted drop testing of all possible combinations of canopy/container (on the list above) but I don't remember that as clearly. Again, maybe practical for a government run testing organization but and most likely a good idea but impractical. Imagine trying to take every reserve make/model/size and test it in each of your container sizes that it might fit in. A good idea? Probably. Possible?, not in our marketplace.

I can't remember the representatives name right now but clearly remember the meetings when the PCSC said these suggestions just were not practical. He was a good guy and he got along well and was friends with many of the other committee members. But he didn't see that in our environment (not government run testing) that these things just wouldn't work. I think the U.S. manufacturers are still a long way away from these suggestions, and we (the buyers) might be able to afford to support them, but in their situation they very well may have made good sense.

This was for the most part before the beginning of the AAD fire bounces. Before a lot of the issues with freebag extraction forces, table totals after AAD fire, etc.

The above still largely impractical but maybe would result in better safety.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Apocarion 0]

Hi,

I'm not an instructor or anything like that, but I obtained the swiss license not too long ago. Yes, as far as I know if you are swiss citizen you have to obtain a swiss license. I also did my AFF in the US and didn't have any problems in getting it accepted over here. After AFF you have to perform several thematic coach jumps similar to the american system, however in Switzerland each topic is concluded by an exam (e.g. aerobatic figures, tracking etc.). Once you completed all the jumps required and passed all the exams you are eligible to take the final exam, which consists of two self-spotted accuracy jumps and a RW jump with one instructor. Of you also have to pass a theoretical exam. It usually takes around 50 jumps to obtain the license, but that also depends how fast you progress since there is no strict jump number requirement.

Here you should find all information: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B77akVj-zZhzZlVkWkN4OFV3dk0/edit (since you mentioned you lived at the french border, I assume you are french speaking ;-))

P.S.: I never heard of anybody having problems getting their license accepted outside of Switzerland.

[piisfish 135]

Local rules apply. Don't like the easy Swiss rules ? Move over the border of the ocean.
Which DZ are you jumping at ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[yvanpec 1]

Thx everyone for all the very useful input. Thx for the link man I'll check it out.

I basically sent out an email to all the DZs close to my house to ask about requirements. Of course I will get my Swiss license since I live in Switzerland. It'll make everyone happy and it will be a good opportunity to train for it and get better.

Apparently the french have a progression system for canopy sizing. Given a certain exit weight and a certain amount of jumps, you're given a smallest size canopy you're allowed to jump. First downsize is apparently at about 110 jumps and then 150,200 etc etc....so it's a good idea tu jump there once you have acquired some experience somewhere else I guess or you'll be renting gear for some solid time.

Im visiting Dubai in april and they said the USPA A license is fine to jump there.

Im sure it gets all easier once you're a confirmed skydiver to jump wherever you want to.

And yes, it's fair to have to show what you can do when you only have a few jumps.

Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground.

[piisfish 135]

For Dubai, Don't expect to Jump the Palm

Again, where do you jump in Switz ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM