Emergency procedure for PC in TOW

[rjf98 0]

In a post in the incident section. PC in tow jumper cut-a-way and pulled reserve. This is being questioned. While I wanted to post there, based on the rules for posting I think it is better talked about here.

If main canopy deployment has initiated in ANY way (horseshoe, PC in tow, bag lock) the proper response is to treat as partial and cut-a-way and pull reserve.

[sundevil777 94]

Your incident section says to pull silver first, then red.

I assume that was not your intention.

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If main canopy deployment has initiated in ANY way (horseshoe, PC in tow, bag lock) the proper response is to treat as partial and cut-a-way and pull reserve.

This has been debated at length with different conclusions from very experienced individuals. What makes you so sure you are correct?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[lazerq3 0]

I think and I hope most would agree that the proper way to treat this is however you were taught to treat it by your indstructors...but hey thats just my .03

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[diablopilot 2]

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If main canopy deployment has initiated in ANY way (horseshoe, PC in tow, bag lock) the proper response is to treat as partial and cut-a-way and pull reserve.

So I pose this: When the reserve comes out and relieves the pressure on the main tray, allowing the main to come out during your reserve deployment, do you wish to deal with two out (no cutaway) or a possible entanglement with no way of controlling the main(cutaway)?

Yes, you could still have an entanglement with the first option (no cutaway), but you still have some control over the main.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,435]

>If main canopy deployment has initiated in ANY way (horseshoe, PC
>in tow, bag lock) the proper response is to treat as partial and cut-a-
>way and pull reserve.

That is what I consider the proper response to be (and what I teach) but there are other opinions on the subject, and they do have some validity (i.e. better to land under 2 canopies than under none if you are low when it happens.)

[sundevil777 94]

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I think and I hope most would agree that the proper way to treat this is however you were taught to treat it by your indstructors

I definitely think that as you gain experience and knowledge, it is OK to question and perhaps NOT follow your original instructor's teachings. Especially for such an issue where there is no clear winner in the arguments for and against. It seems obvious that instructors are not in agreement on this subject, so why should I feel bound to my instructor's position on this issue?

- edit to add the PD and army study of 2 out scenarios. This should be read before forming your own conclusions.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 7]

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>If main canopy deployment has initiated in ANY way (horseshoe, PC
>in tow, bag lock) the proper response is to treat as partial and cut-a-
>way and pull reserve.

That is what I consider the proper response to be (and what I teach) but there are other opinions on the
subject, and they do have some validity (i.e. better to land under 2 canopies than under none if you are low
when it happens.)

And Bill it allows you to have ONE procedure...That saves time.

Did I throw? Yes! Cutaway and pull the silver.

Insted of did I throw? Yes! Well, what the hell happend?
Should I cutaway, or just pull the silver.

I like simple things in high stress situations.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sundevil777 94]

Perhaps what is really important to know is this:

How likely is the PC in tow to 'clear' during the reserve deployment?

If you argue that the reasons for the tow are usually not solved by a little less tension, because the PC is already able to pull with about 10 times the force that should be needed, then cutting away does no harm, except for the wasted time.

If you argue that the reason for the tow may involve a PC that is not fully cocked or for some reason not performing fully, then the reduced tension may indeed matter, and then it is important to evaluate whether the risk of entaglement/pulling up the reserve slider/etc. is greater as the main departs (cut away) or during simultaneous deployment (not cutting away).

What do you think? It seems like we always argue about which procedure is better, without understanding what I think is the important question that must be answered before coming to your conclusion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 7]

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Perhaps what is really important to know is this:

How likely is the PC in tow to 'clear' during the reserve deployment?

If you argue that the reasons for the tow are usually not solved by a little less tension, because the PC is
already able to pull with about 10 times the force that should be needed, then cutting away does no harm,
except for the wasted time.

If you argue that the reason for the tow may involve a PC that is not fully cocked or for some reason not
performing fully, then the reduced tension may indeed matter, and then it is important to evaluate whether
the risk of entaglement/pulling up the reserve slider/etc. is greater as the main departs (cut away) or during
simultaneous deployment (not cutting away).

What do you think? It seems like we always argue about which procedure is better, without understanding
what I think is the important question that must be answered before coming to your conclusion.

This is a very good question.

However my thought on this is simple. You are doing 120MPH at a large piece of earth. If you figure that you pulled around 2,500 feet, you have 15 seconds to do something. (I always say the last 2 seconds don't count unless you already did something, but I'll give ya all 15 here).

I don't think MOST people can afford to take the time to think about what happened, and how to fix it. I would hate to do the exact right thing right before I bounced. I would rather do maybe not the best thing, but with some time to try and fix it.

This debate will rage longer than the BOC/PUD or the RSL Yes/No thing. I honestly think that in this situation its a crap shoot on what happens....And whats really important is to stop the fast moving planet before it reaches you.

But I will still follow this...And maybe someone will do a really good test on this.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mikkey 0]

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However my thought on this is simple. You are doing 120MPH at a large piece of earth. If you figure that you pulled around 2,500 feet, you have 15 seconds to do something. (I always say the last 2 seconds don't count unless you already did something, but I'll give ya all 15 here).

I don't think MOST people can afford to take the time to think about what happened, and how to fix it. I would hate to do the exact right thing right before I bounced. I would rather do maybe not the best thing, but with some time to try and fix it.

Ron is right. No time for deep thoughts about what would be the best procedure when you are passing 2000 feet after deploying your PC and nothing happens. I have been there and done that. My muscle memory is completely drilled on cut-away and then reserve. Time passes fast and you do not want to waste it. I only would go straigt for silver if I have not (can not) deploy PC. Scenario I had: Pull at 2500 feet - wait a few seconds - brain says - ooops nothing has happened - what the f**k - you are passing 2000 feet now - one look behind you (see PC dangling) - 1800 feet - cut-away and reserve procedure - reserve out at around 1300 feet.

There is no time to stuff around when you have a high speed mal. I practise my 2 handle procedure at every lift. There have been a few fatalities over the years where people have been found with handles in their hand - they did something - but too late....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Shark 0]

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It seems obvious that instructors are not in agreement on this subject, so why should I feel bound to my instructor's position on this issue?

We're talking about students who have few, if any jumps. If you are an instructor at our dz you will be in agreement regarding emergency procedures. We're teaching students, not those with thousands of jumps. We can debate this and the 2 out scenarios forever.

[Rdutch 0]

I have a few examples, of this and the results:
1: I was at skydive Az for the Nationals and we were using a packer, I usually cocked my own pc but one round Video was confused so I didn't have time, so I left it for the packer, who didn't cock it. During break off I dump and nothing happen's, I froze up, I was worried as hell about my main deploying as my reserve fired. Just as I went for my cutaway my pc inflated and deployed my main. I can say I f'd up big time there, I was under an open main, lower than I would want to be under a good reserve. Lesson learned, next time dont hesitate pull both handle's and pray.

2: A jumper was doing a rw jump, and did a little playing around at breakoff (Fruit Looping) somehow his cutaway handle was pulled, without his knowledge. He tracked off normally and deployed, his main came off his back so fast and clean we can only asume that he had no idea that it was gone, and believed to have a pc in tow. Having had a pc in tow myself I believe that to be true, cause I had no idea what was going on behind my back. Anyway, he spent the rest of his life trying to clear his pc in tow, and then trying to cutaway a handle that wasn't there.

3: A jumper with a new rig, and a new pull out system was jumping with her team, at break off, she tried to deploy, and her pull out was misrouted, this is the hard to understand thing somehow she got her pc out of the container but the container was locked. The jury is out on if she beat her cypress or not, but it fired, and she landed about 20 feet away from her handles and freebag, extremely shaken. Lesson learned, she had the same exact problem a week later and wasted no time cutting away and pulling her reserve. She now jumps a BOC design, but the pull out isnt to blame, Jumpers should check their gear, and Packers should know how to close the gear the right way.

If you ask 10 instructors what to do in this situation you will get 10 different results, Its good to see you are thinking about it, and make a plan ahead of time for any situation, best of all stick to what you decide, practice, practice, practice. My opinion is Never go in with any handle's. But I also make sure I am deployed well high enough to handle any situation (Hopefully).

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[lazerq3 0]

I know I'll probably get razzed for this but all these threads about PC's in tows jsut freak me out!!!! Cuase it seems like a MAL that there really is no right answer!! I mean baglock, streamer, horseshoe, lineover, CUTAWAY!! hard pull or lost hackey, pud , rip..RESERVE but them damn PC"s take a pick and hope for the best !!! YOu know what I mean!

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[mikkey 0]

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I know I'll probably get razzed for this but all these threads about PC's in tows jsut freak me out!!!! Cuase it seems like a MAL that there really is no right answer!! I mean baglock, streamer, horseshoe, lineover, CUTAWAY!! hard pull or lost hackey, pud , rip..RESERVE but them damn PC"s take a pick and hope for the best !!! YOu know what I mean!

jason

You are absolutely right. Horse shoe and PC in tow are probably the 2 mals I am most afraid of. I have tried the latter and must say it is scary shit. This is why people are saying - practise your emergency procedure and stick with it, even if it is not ideal. As there is no perfect solution, go for the one that is in in your "muscle memory" IMO.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[SkydiverRick 0]

[mikkey 0]

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The best way to deal with any malfunction is to avoid it. Maintain your equipment, pack it properly and get a real gear check before exit.

Duhh...Really? We are discussing emergency procedures IF shit hits the fan. No offense intended but you are stating the bleeding obvious and being somewhat off topic.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[diablopilot 2]

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Horse shoe and PC in tow are probably the 2 mals I am most afraid of.

As long as we are draging out dead horses to beat, you've just pointed out my reason for choosing a pullout for the last 2200+ jumps.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lazerq3 0]

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The best way to deal with any malfunction is to avoid it. Maintain your equipment, pack it properly and get a real gear check before exit

Plus while I respect your reply and yes you are 100% right,, the truth is that doesnt happen , I mean yes poeple maintain there gear and do gear checks but unfortunalty shit happens and so do mals or else we wouldnt need to practice our drills!!

jason

Freedom of speech includes volume

[Ron 7]

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As long as we are draging out dead horses to beat, you've just pointed out my reason for choosing a pullout
for the last 2200+ jumps.....

It seems it still CAN happen..I don't know how, but it did.
Lets not let this get into a PUD/Pullout debate...

Both have issues, and both have benefits.
Yes a PUD should not have a PC in tow, but a lost PUD is something a BOC will not have.

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3: A jumper with a new rig, and a new pull out system was jumping with her team, at break off, she
tried to deploy, and her pull out was misrouted, this is the hard to understand thing somehow she got
her pc out of the container but the container was locked. The jury is out on if she beat her cypress or
not, but it fired, and she landed about 20 feet away from her handles and freebag, extremely shaken.
Lesson learned, she had the same exact problem a week later and wasted no time cutting away and
pulling her reserve. She now jumps a BOC design, but the pull out isnt to blame, Jumpers should check
their gear, and Packers should know how to close the gear the right way.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rjf98 0]

Yes, simply a miss type. That's what happens when your not concentrating and screwing around on the computer at work. I think that's probably why I got the not so nice response. I as first posted on this thread cut-a-way (red) pull reserve (silver).

[pilotdave 0]

I have had 2 pilot chutes in tow that both ended with the main opening just fine. I'm still not sure of the cause but I think it was a combination of a shrunken kill line and a tight container.

The first time, I don't know why, but without even thinking about it I reached back, grabbed my bridle, and gave it a tug. It all happened really fast in one motion. It fixed the PC in tow, but it also flipped me over and my dbag bounced right over my side. Canopy opened fine with a couple linetwists.

The second time, my hands went right to the cutaway handle. As soon as I touched it the main opened. Whew.

So I'm not saying what the right thing to do is. I'm just saying what I instinctively did when I was in that position. No idea where I got the instinct to pull the bridle... I really only realized I had done it after it was done.

Dave

[Scrumpot 1]

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If you argue that the reason for the tow may involve a PC that is not fully cocked or for some reason not performing fully, then the reduced tension may indeed matter, and then it is important to evaluate whether the risk of entaglement/pulling up the reserve slider/etc. is greater as the main departs (cut away) or during simultaneous deployment (not cutting away).

What do you think?

Chances are, that under THIS scenario, once the reserve has inflated and you are now vertical in attitude, if the pin now somehow did either fall out or get pulled (if PC drag force was insufficient at terminal, it certainly now is going to be much less once UNDER your reserve) ...Most likely the d-bag is instead going to merely drop out of the container, rather than pull to line-stretch & begin to inflate. I have actually seen this happen just this way too, BTW.

I am for "if you KNOW you have pitched something" then don't take the time second guessing it... Pull cut-away, pull Silver. If on the other hand you KNOW you have put NOTHING into the wind (like an unfind-able hackey buried into the spandex) then go straight to Silver. There's pro's & con's to differing opinions & this one is just mine. Personal decision (thought out in ADVANCE) based upon weighing risk/reward consequences & potentialities scenarios (and personal gear/configuration choices too) that go along with that.

My .02
BSBD,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

I have had 2 Pilot chutes in tow... Caused by the top flap of the container not releasing. I cleared the first by pulling the bridle.

And after listening to a well respected AFFI do a recurrency training with someone else, when I could not clear the second PIT, I did not cut away.... I ended up in exactly this scenerio:

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When the reserve comes out and relieves the pressure on the main tray, allowing the main to come out during your reserve deployment.

I was lucky as hell. My reserve bridle/freebag tangled with my main bridle. The canopies opened simultaneously. With plenty of altitude, I played with both out for a bit, then downplaned and cut away the main.

I got an ass chewing for not cutting away first, but it created a discussion, and now all the instructors at our DZ will be on the same page--Cut Away a Pilot chute in tow.

[tbrown 26]

The first time, I don't know why, but without even thinking about it I reached back, grabbed my bridle, and gave it a tug. It all happened really fast in one motion. It fixed the PC in tow, but it also flipped me over and my dbag bounced right over my side. Canopy opened fine with a couple line twists.

[bclark 0]

DO SOMETHING!

Nice thing about PC in tows is that if you cock your pilot chute, maintain your gear, and do proper gear checks you will probably never have one.