Ukraine

[JoeWeber 2,299]

56 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Easy Jakee...eaaaasy Jakee. Its obvious that Joe underestimates the sheer power of the US military. No I'm not talking about a dozen nuclear powered carrier battle groups. I mean the power of the lobbying of the US military industrial complex.

Its power to convince Americans that only massive military power of the best weapons will do. Speaking of which. I've got a bone to pick with Biden. He phoned the Canadian prime minister and persuaded him to donate artillery systems to Ukraine.

Up till now, in true liberal fashion. Canada has been the only G-7 country not to send heavy weapons. Canada only has 37 modern artillery weapons. So now the liberal government is in a serious quandary. How many to send? So he has postponed that decision. Instead of loading them on the three C-17s that Canada has. Canada will likely order a Royal Commission to study the matter for 3-5 years.

For the uninitiated " Royal commissions, once described by a member of Parliament as costly travelling minstrel shows, are a form of official inquiry into matters that could take years and cost tens of millions..."

Phil,

I have no illusions about the power of the US Military Industrial Complex. We have a big problem that keeps getting bigger. Nor do I blame Canada alone for the size of our defense budget.  My initial posit that our NATO partners have collectively not met their spending obligations became a dialogue between myself, a well known US apologist, and Ken, a well known Canadian. Until the British anti-waiver, kidney transplant fearing, base jumping community decided to join the parade at an intersection along the way there it resided. Ken was simply, and vigorously, defending Canada's stance and I the position of the US.

I was vigorously pointing out that there in fact is an agreement at the Defense Minister level that should have been honored. Apparently not everyone believes that signed agreements between Governments executed at the Minister Level are more than just mildly interesting and nothing to fret over. I disagree as firmly as I disagree that a signed agreement executed at the manifest level is a simple formality, not binding on anyone, and no more than a time consuming inconvenience. 

I further opined that, and please allow the paraphrase, that we who wish to see less US Defense spending don't have a snowballs chance in hell of achieving that in a world where the US right wing can argue that unless our defense partners stone up it's us or no one. Surely, anyone can argue that may or may not help the cause but doing so as a means of explaining away other internationally formed obligations is disingenuous, in my opinion.

As it often, if not invariably does here, the thread drifted causing a perception of a US vs. Canada argument. That's too bad. I have zero enmity towards Canada or Canadians it was simply that I was, so to speak, involved at the time with a Canadian.

For example. were it today and my correspondent was a German who made the same arguments I would equally point out that they haven't met their end of the deal either. I would further point out in accordance with the German position, recently stated, that they have no more weapons in stock to send to Ukraine that there might well be a reason for that and, no, sending 2700 moldy, decrepit, former East German Strela's MANPADS that haven't been maintained in 33 years instead is pretty sorry play. So, regardless of who is on a budget too tight to really help when it hits the fan my argument will remain the same.

Thank you for accepting the thread hijack.

 

 

 

[Phil1111 911]

13 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Phil,

I have no illusions about the power of the US Military Industrial Complex. ...

Thank you for accepting the thread hijack.

A recent appraisal of military aid to Ukraine has shown the US to be the number one supplier of aid and equipment. Your representations about German stockpiles is on point. But in line with what I suggested. The German chancellor has recently walked back some of his commitments to spending. Which I understand. Germany under Chancellor Merkel tied Germany very closely to Russia in energy supplies. I really admired Merkel, but that was a colossal mistake. Now Germany has to wean itself from the Russian nipple of energy and rearm. After years of under-funding its military.

Politicians love to make promises that they won't follow through with. Canadian ones the full equal of any other government. Our current covid promises in international funding and vaccine deliveries. To the international effort to fight the pandemic. Is way short and long overdue. But I digress.

Prior to the last budget in Canada. The Canadian defense minister uttered all kinds of musings about equipment Canada needed. Submarines, Canada has none because the three used ones we bought from the UK are duds. Fighter aircraft. There was talk of a F-35 order. Shot down in the budget. New ships. Sunk in cabinet discussions.

My point is that politicians will talk up what serious needs of defense equipment. But when the presidents, the prime ministers, the chancellors. Sit down for the final budget decisions in cabinet meetings. In most NATO countries, defense gets the short stick. Baltic states, the US and Poland currently exempted.

I will say that I have big current concerns about China. Perhaps trump was right again. Perhaps the current US, Australia and N.Z. coalition concerns are correct. I see China as a dangerous concern almost equal to Russia.

IMO Canada would have to suffer a serious debacle on the battlefield. To turn Canadian pacifism with regards to military spending around.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

9 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

A recent appraisal of military aid to Ukraine has shown the US to be the number one supplier of aid and equipment. Your representations about German stockpiles is on point. But in line with what I suggested. The German chancellor has recently walked back some of his commitments to spending. Which I understand. Germany under Chancellor Merkel tied Germany very closely to Russia in energy supplies. I really admired Merkel, but that was a colossal mistake. Now Germany has to wean itself from the Russian nipple of energy and rearm. After years of under-funding its military.

Politicians love to make promises that they won't follow through with. Canadian ones the full equal of any other government. Our current covid promises in international funding and vaccine deliveries. To the international effort to fight the pandemic. Is way short and long overdue. But I digress.

Prior to the last budget in Canada. The Canadian defense minister uttered all kinds of musings about equipment Canada needed. Submarines, Canada has none because the three used ones we bought from the UK are duds. Fighter aircraft. There was talk of a F-35 order. Shot down in the budget. New ships. Sunk in cabinet discussions.

My point is that politicians will talk up what serious needs of defense equipment. But when the presidents, the prime ministers, the chancellors. Sit down for the final budget decisions in cabinet meetings. In most NATO countries, defense gets the short stick. Baltic states, the US and Poland currently exempted.

I will say that I have big current concerns about China. Perhaps trump was right again. Perhaps the current US, Australia and N.Z. coalition concerns are correct. I see China as a dangerous concern almost equal to Russia.

IMO Canada would have to suffer a serious debacle on the battlefield. To turn Canadian pacifism with regards to military spending around.

I am fully on board about China. They already know they've won and have the patience to let it play out. I am fully persuaded that western democracies are only in the game for the next few hundred years, at best. Of course, if we want that limited time we need to focus now.

[riggerrob 558]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

Would a US analogy be the House Select Committee on Benghazi?

Canadian Royal Commission inquires are frequently excuses to delay decisions for many years - sometimes decades - until funding becomes available. Meanwhile, the ongoing bureaucracy wastes millions of dollars.

Just look at the long string of Canadian Defense procurement fiascos: Sea King helicopter replacement, DHC-5 Buffalo replacement, CF-18 replacement, CH-47 Chinook helicopter replacement, Centurion tank replacement, Leopard I tank replacement, etc.

Edited April 20, 2022 by riggerrob
spelling

[jakee 1,255]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Ken was simply, and vigorously, defending Canada's stance and I the position of the US.

Why do you lie about what you said when it’s still written down in black and white? You know it’s not true, we all know it’s not true, what’s the point?

[gowlerk 1,912]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

Would a US analogy be the House Select Committee on Benghazi?

Not quite as they are not held by politicians but bureaucrats. They basically are make work projects for lawyers.

Edited April 20, 2022 by gowlerk

[riggerrob 558]

Reference the debate about NATO allies not paying their fair share .... May I compare with the notion that the USA is many billions of dollars behind on their payments to the United Nations?

The USA pays its UN commitments in other ways.

For example: "5 I" countries (Australia, Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand and USA) lose money every time they send troops on UN peace-keeping missions. The UN pays a fixed number of dollars per soldier/police peacekeeper serving in the disputed country. But "5 I" countries "go heavy" supplying their troops with trucks, APCs, helicopters, mortars, heavy machineguns, snipers, field hospitals, surveillance drones, extensive communications, intelligence officers and robust supply chains. Those robust supply chains "push" forward water, food, clothing, tents, sleeping bags, blankets, bandages, toilet paper, batteries, ammunition, truck spare parts, petroleum, oil and lubricants, and hundreds of other consumable supplies. "5 I" peacekeepers quickly out-spend their UN budgets. The advantage is that the vast majority of "5 I" soldiers return home at the end of their UN missions.

In comparison, poorer nations (Carribbean or African) collect the same number of dollars from the UN, but their officers pocket most of the dollars. Junior ranking peace-keepers arrive in-country with barely their rifles and the uniforms on their backs. Junior soldiers rarely see their UN pay. Meanwhile, they need to request supplies through lengthy UN supply chains that include sending out requests for bids, evaluating bids, etc.

[Phil1111 911]

15 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Not quite as they are not held by politicians but bureaucrats. They basically are make work projects for lawyers.

Sort of. The politicians yank the chains and define the parameters of the commissions. Knowing full well as Rob suggests. That its a delaying, wheel spinning exercise and waste of money. You're right about the lawyers making coin off of it. There is a lawyer behind every document, beside every bureaucrat.

Back to Ukraine Wimbledon Will Bar Russian and Belarusian Players Yet the Olympics can't help themselves in their pandering to Russian and Chinese cheating.

"Russia announced on Wednesday it had successfully launched a new missile that it said could deploy nuclear warheads at hypersonic speeds anywhere in the world and outwit defenses, a move that President Vladimir V. Putin said was aimed at showing Russia’s adversaries that they needed to “think twice” before threatening his country."

There is no word yet about the damages to Russian infrastructure caused by the launch. Russian news reports stated that the missile needed "further testing".

[JoeWeber 2,299]

6 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Sort of. The politicians yank the chains and define the parameters of the commissions. Knowing full well as Rob suggests. That its a delaying, wheel spinning exercise and waste of money. You're right about the lawyers making coin off of it. There is a lawyer behind every document, beside every bureaucrat.

Back to Ukraine Wimbledon Will Bar Russian and Belarusian Players Yet the Olympics can't help themselves in their pandering to Russian and Chinese cheating.

"Russia announced on Wednesday it had successfully launched a new missile that it said could deploy nuclear warheads at hypersonic speeds anywhere in the world and outwit defenses, a move that President Vladimir V. Putin said was aimed at showing Russia’s adversaries that they needed to “think twice” before threatening his country."

There is no word yet about the damages to Russian infrastructure caused by the launch. Russian news reports stated that the missile needed "further testing".

Yep, and at the end of the day it comes down to who is doing what. 

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/6/pdf/210611-pr-2021-094-en.pdf

This chart also tells a tale: 

Edited April 21, 2022 by JoeWeber

[Phil1111 911]

25 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Yep, and at the end of the day it comes down to who is doing what. 

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/6/pdf/210611-pr-2021-094-en.pdf

This chart also tells a tale: 

Evidently the Polish Mig-29s are in Ukraine now. Together with a couple tons of spare parts.

"Pentagon spokesman John Kirby retracted his statement from Tuesday that Ukraine had received fighter jets from an unnamed ally, after weeks of speculation that a neighboring country might provide Russian-made MiG-29s to add to the Ukrainian air force's capabilities against the Russian invaders.

While fixed-wing aircraft have been offered by an unidentified country to bolster Kyiv's defenses, "they have not received whole aircraft from another nation," Kirby told reporters.

"I was mistaken. They have not received whole aircraft from another nation," Kirby said of his Tuesday claim."

Evidently if you take out the vodka cup holder from the cockpit its not a complete aircraft. Thus the tender sensitivities of the Russians won't be offended. As soon as the parts were transferred to Ukraine. They immediately started flying in formation!

"Separately, a senior US defense official said the parts supply has enabled Ukraine to add 20 previously inoperable jets to its active fighter fleet."

[Phil1111 911]

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I am fully on board about China. They already know they've won and have the patience to let it play out. I am fully persuaded that western democracies are only in the game for the next few hundred years, at best. Of course, if we want that limited time we need to focus now.

I believe you're mistaken. Getting rid of the communist kleptocracy won't be easy for the Chinese people. The current zero-covid screwup in Shanghai is a perfect example of the dangers of single party rule. Xi will be very difficult for China to get rid of now that he's president for life.

Xi and Putin are two of a kind and they will both end up in the dustbins of history. Democracies work because they regularly oust the ruling parties. Keeping corruption lower.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

Evidently the Polish Mig-29s are in Ukraine now. Together with a couple tons of spare parts.

"Pentagon spokesman John Kirby retracted his statement from Tuesday that Ukraine had received fighter jets from an unnamed ally, after weeks of speculation that a neighboring country might provide Russian-made MiG-29s to add to the Ukrainian air force's capabilities against the Russian invaders.

While fixed-wing aircraft have been offered by an unidentified country to bolster Kyiv's defenses, "they have not received whole aircraft from another nation," Kirby told reporters.

"I was mistaken. They have not received whole aircraft from another nation," Kirby said of his Tuesday claim."

Evidently if you take out the vodka cup holder from the cockpit its not a complete aircraft. Thus the tender sensitivities of the Russians won't be offended. As soon as the parts were transferred to Ukraine. They immediately started flying in formation!

"Separately, a senior US defense official said the parts supply has enabled Ukraine to add 20 previously inoperable jets to its active fighter fleet."

I laughed my ass off at that. The west is doing it somehow some way. Now. We need to do it now, and apparently we are. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

Just now, Phil1111 said:

I believe you're mistaken. Getting rid of the communist kleptocracy won't be easy for the Chinese people. The current zero-covid screwup in Shanghai is a perfect example of the dangers of single party rule. Xi will be very difficult for China to get rid of now that he's president for life.

Xi and Putin are two of a kind and they will both end up in the dustbins of history. Democracies work because they regularly oust the ruling parties. Keeping corruption lower.

Large numbers of people seem unsuited to the vote, it seems. Then, of course, the bigger the game the more opportunity to create a system of favoritism over the best outcome for the most. I'm betting on the crooks.

[Phil1111 911]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Large numbers of people seem unsuited to the vote, it seems. Then, of course, the bigger the game the more opportunity to create a system of favoritism over the best outcome for the most. I'm betting on the crooks.

Boo-hoo trump is but 16 months ago and you're coming apart. Although you have a bit of a point.  "Marine" Le Pen is a chip off the trump block in France. She is but five points behind Macron with the vote next Sunday. Debate tonight, hi-lights quoted.

" she will cut taxes, reward hard work, and help those who are vulnerable. I will “give the French their money back”, she says, to the tune of €150-200 a month per household...questions EU sanctions on Russia, which she says “will do enormous harm to the French people” ...Macron counterattacks, raising Le Pen’s support for Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the fact that her party has taken out Russian bank loans. “You are dependent on Russian power, and Mr Putin”, Macron says. Le Pen insists, vehemently, that the loans do not mean she is influenced by Moscow: “I am a perfectly free woman,”

She would normalize relations with Putin if elected then said “I want the European Commission to respect sovereign nations"

Then num-nuts got re-elected in Hungary after doing some serious GOP re-redistricting, vote-buying, etc.  Then allowing busing from one voting district to another through changes to the law. But i digress.

Yes there seems to be a fascist under every rock. I better pour a double whiskey.

[gowlerk 1,912]

28 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I better pour a double whiskey.

If it isn't going to be at least a double, why bother?

[SkyDekker 1,122]

12 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Yep, and at the end of the day it comes down to who is doing what. 

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2021/6/pdf/210611-pr-2021-094-en.pdf

This chart also tells a tale: 

This chart also tells a tale:

 

Then what also tells a tale is that EU institution donations are not counted as part of this tracker, nor is the 2 billion Euro commitment from the European Investment bank.

 

All that to say, no single chart really tells a true story....

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

This chart also tells a tale:

 

Then what also tells a tale is that EU institution donations are not counted as part of this tracker, nor is the 2 billion Euro commitment from the European Investment bank.

 

All that to say, no single chart really tells a true story....

My error as the core point I was making is that NGO's have gone short of their defense obligations and it is becoming glaringly obvious now.

So you know, €2 Billion likely won't pay for dumpster services during clean-up if Ukraine comes out of this with a country. Weapons from stocks are what they need now, not hopes and prayers later.

To be completely jingoistic here, I am proud that America is doing so much and in a timely manner for Ukraine. 

[SkyDekker 1,122]

33 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

So you know, €2 Billion likely won't pay for dumpster services during clean-up if Ukraine comes out of this with a country.

This is current announced commitments. There is a long way to go. We still have to fight the rest of WWIII before we get to worry about Ukraine cleanup.

34 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

To be completely jingoistic here, I am proud that America is doing so much and in a timely manner for Ukraine. 

Yes, I am happy that Biden is currently President and not his predecessor, which would have made this all very, very different. I also wish Canada would do much more. Though Freeland was apparently the architect behind the sanctions on the Russian Central Bank, which does have a significant impact. Sometimes accomplishments cannot be measured in dollars I guess.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

24 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

This is current announced commitments. There is a long way to go. We still have to fight the rest of WWIII before we get to worry about Ukraine cleanup.

Yes, I am happy that Biden is currently President and not his predecessor, which would have made this all very, very different. I also wish Canada would do much more. Though Freeland was apparently the architect behind the sanctions on the Russian Central Bank, which does have a significant impact. Sometimes accomplishments cannot be measured in dollars I guess.

Some of this dialogue reminds me of when I first started traveling out of the country decades ago. I was sort of steeped in the ugly American meme, you know, checked shorts, loud everywhere etc., I told myself I would be different. What I found was that there were as many ugly everyones out there and some a damn sight uglier than Americans. I also noticed that wherever they went Americans were generous and kind and helpful and, invariably, were so perceived. That's one big reason I am proud to be American. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by JoeWeber

[SkyDekker 1,122]

26 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Some of this dialogue reminds me of when I first started traveling out of the country decades ago. I was sort of steeped in the ugly American meme, you know, checked shorts, loud everywhere etc., I told myself I would be different. What I found was that there were as many ugly everyones out there and some a damn sight uglier than Americans. I also noticed that wherever they went Americans were generous and kind and helpful and, invariably, were so perceived. That's one big reason I am proud to be American. 

Judging by this comment, doesn't really look like you are that different.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

8 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Judging by this comment, doesn't really look like you are that different.

You might go back and read some of the caustic digs you post. No matter, time to go our separate ways.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

You might go back and read some of the caustic digs you post. No matter, time to go our separate ways.

Yes agreeing that the US is doing a lot and wishing Canada would do more is a real caustic dig. You see what you want to see.

[ryoder 1,384]

Here is an interesting 5m trivia video on how a neutral nation got around the touchy issue of supplying military aircraft to combatants in WWII:

 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

6 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Yes agreeing that the US is doing a lot and wishing Canada would do more is a real caustic dig. You see what you want to see.

Fish have longer memories. Try recalling some of the snarky, expertly on the teetering edge of a PA, things you've said over time. Not to me but to anyone on offer. Of course, as you mention it, thanks for being dragged kicking and screaming to a soft agreement that Canada is a poor defense partner. I might suggest, that as ugly American proud as I am of my countries contribution to Ukraine, the protection of Ukrainians, and world democracy, you might elevate your wishful thinking about Canada's contribution to something more akin to embarrassment.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Fish have longer memories. Try recalling some of the snarky, expertly on the teetering edge of a PA, things you've said over time. Not to me but to anyone on offer.

Ah so your comment was just based on your general dislike of me and not based on the topic. Didn't have you pegged as a troll, but it is what it is.

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I might suggest, that as ugly American proud as I am of my countries contribution to Ukraine, the protection of Ukrainians, and world democracy, you might elevate your wishful thinking about Canada's contribution to something more akin to embarrassment.

I don't understand how you are proud of something you have absolutely no control over, nor have anything to do with. But whatever makes you feel good.