lippy 782 #26 December 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Coreece said: Exactly! A vice president killing a founding father in a gun duel illustrates quite effectively the positive mindset surrounding firearms at the time. They were responsible, they had honor, they had rules! And they had class. . .not like today's kids. The had a duel, they didn't go shoot up the school house...see the difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 924 #27 December 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Stumpy said: This is just so weird Whats more Americana than your wife with a Tommy gun and your 13 year old daughter with a Uzi? All together for the Christmas family photo for your constituents. I can hardly hear for all the dog whistles a-blowing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,404 #28 December 5, 2021 33 minutes ago, lippy said: The had a duel, they didn't go shoot up the school house...see the difference? Specifically, both sides agreed in advance to participate, as opposed to one attacking the other by surprise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,942 #29 December 5, 2021 41 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: Whats more Americana than your wife with a Tommy gun and your 13 year old daughter with a Uzi? All together for the Christmas family photo for your constituents. I can hardly hear for all the dog whistles a-blowing. It’s called virtue signalling and owning the libs. It’s working here exactly like he wants it to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #30 December 5, 2021 44 minutes ago, lippy said: The had a duel, they didn't go shoot up the school house I think you're missing the point, but here, since you brought it up: https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,090 #31 December 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Coreece said: I think you're missing the point, but here, since you brought it up: https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states How fucking disturbing is that? Especially love the part where it says, "The early 1980s saw only a few multi-victim school shootings." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,942 #32 December 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Coreece said: I think you're missing the point, but here, since you brought it up: https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states I note how "The two most notable U.S. school shootings in the early 1970s were the Jackson State killings in May 1970, where police opened fire on the campus of Jackson State University and the Kent State shootings also in May 1970 where the National Guard opened fire on the campus of Kent State University." Both clear cases of right wing excess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,071 #33 December 5, 2021 10 hours ago, phantomII said: Rep. from Kentucky as rolemodel? Hi phantom, Proof that insanity is hereditary. Jerry Baumchen 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #34 December 5, 2021 11 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said: Hi phantom, Proof that insanity is hereditary. Jerry Baumchen Insanity IS hereditary, you get it from your kids Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #35 December 6, 2021 12 hours ago, BIGUN said: 13 hours ago, Coreece said: I think you're missing the point, but here, since you brought it up: https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states How fucking disturbing is that? Especially love the part where it says, "The early 1980s saw only a few multi-victim school shootings." One of the things that immediately stood out to me was how the numbers for the 2000s were significantly lower than those from the 90s. So something's working, right? But again, the point here is that we have a vice president and a founding father, both of whom were supposedly intelligent, insightful leaders of the time, and these guys decide that the best way to solve their differences is by shooting at each other? Add to that the school shootings during the 1800s along with the acquittals, and it's easy to see that appealing to the intentions of the founding fathers and the mindset surrounding gun ownership at the time is a rather weak argument that gun law enthusiasts like to use. Btw, I was prompted to post here because this one hit close to home. My stepdaughter was to start school there Monday before the shooting, but her admission was delayed. Obviously we have some decisions to make. I want to send her elsewhere, but I can't help but to think that's just an overreaction. It might actually be safer now, and I don't think there have been any repeat occurrences at other schools, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lippy 782 #36 December 6, 2021 47 minutes ago, Coreece said: One of the things that immediately stood out to me was how the numbers for the 2000s were significantly lower than those from the 90s. So something's working, right? But again, the point here is that we have a vice president and a founding father, both of whom were supposedly intelligent, insightful leaders of the time, and these guys decide that the best way to solve their differences is by shooting at each other? Add to that the school shootings during the 1800s along with the acquittals, and it's easy to see that appealing to the intentions of the founding fathers and the mindset surrounding gun ownership at the time is a rather weak argument that gun law enthusiasts like to use. Btw, I was prompted to post here because this one hit close to home. My stepdaughter was to start school there Monday before the shooting, but her admission was delayed. Obviously we have some decisions to make. I want to send her elsewhere, but I can't help but to think that's just an overreaction. It might actually be safer now, and I don't think there have been any repeat occurrences at other schools, right? Again, the fact that two people decided to have a duel over 200 years ago has ZERO relevance to someone unloading semi-auto weapons into kids who were just trying to go to school. I'm not a parent and I won't pretend to understand the difficulty of the decision you've got to make with your step-daughter in the aftermath of this, but I wish you and your family the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,450 #37 December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Coreece said: One of the things that immediately stood out to me was how the numbers for the 2000s were significantly lower than those from the 90s. So something's working, right? Perhaps. But the numbers lately don't look like they are going in the right direction. Gunfire incidents on school grounds: 2021 144 2020 96 2019 130 2018 105 2017 170 2016 61 2015 66 2014 67 2013 51 And looking at victims of school shootings: (graphic below) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #38 December 6, 2021 2 hours ago, lippy said: 3 hours ago, Coreece said: But again, the point here is that we have a vice president and a founding father, both of whom were supposedly intelligent, insightful leaders of the time, and these guys decide that the best way to solve their differences is by shooting at each other? Add to that the school shootings during the 1800s along with the acquittals, and it's easy to see that appealing to the intentions of the founding fathers and the mindset surrounding gun ownership at the time is a rather weak argument that gun law enthusiasts like to use. Again, the fact that two people decided to have a duel over 200 years ago has ZERO relevance to someone unloading semi-auto weapons into kids who were just trying to go to school. But it is relevant to the post I was replying to about the intentions of the founding fathers. Hamilton's poor decisions regarding firearms in his personal life provide insight into the gun nut mentality of that time. If two men of that stature felt this was a reasonable solution, then who knows wtf they were thinking. 2 hours ago, billvon said: the numbers lately don't look like they are going in the right direction. Gunfire incidents on school grounds. . . While the number of deaths appear to have decreased, I'd agree that the upward trend over the last several years in the total number of incidents might be a better indicator of things to come. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,090 #39 December 6, 2021 8 hours ago, Coreece said: One of the things that immediately stood out to me was how the numbers for the 2000s were significantly lower than those from the 90s. So something's working, right? By luck; not by design. 8 hours ago, Coreece said: But again, the point here is that we have a vice president and a founding father, both of whom were supposedly intelligent, insightful leaders of the time, and these guys decide that the best way to solve their differences is by shooting at each other? Add to that the school shootings during the 1800s along with the acquittals, and it's easy to see that appealing to the intentions of the founding fathers and the mindset surrounding gun ownership at the time is a rather weak argument that gun law enthusiasts like to use. I really don't know how to address this. 8 hours ago, Coreece said: Btw, I was prompted to post here because this one hit close to home. My stepdaughter was to start school there Monday before the shooting, but her admission was delayed. Obviously we have some decisions to make. I want to send her elsewhere, but I can't help but to think that's just an overreaction. It might actually be safer now, and I don't think there have been any repeat occurrences at other schools, right? My daughter has had the school locked down due to "active shooter" situations at least five times. Around here, "active shooter" is defined as any unknown human threat to the children on campus grounds. In most cases, campus police handle it before they get inside the building. And, our campus police are armed. But, we are fortunate to live in the upper-end of middle class and our school system in one of the best. Having said that, I buy two of those rubberized shove under the door stops for each door for each class (most times two doors, so four per class), that she's in at the beginning of each semester to give to the teachers. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,942 #40 December 6, 2021 4 hours ago, Coreece said: Hamilton's poor decisions regarding firearms in his personal life provide insight into the gun nut mentality of that time. If two men of that stature felt this was a reasonable solution, then who knows wtf they were thinking. Before there were reliable firearms for duels men of "honour" used swords or daggers. It really had very little to do with the chosen weapons. As far as the intention of the 2nd goes, it is written quite clearly and I do believe it is being interpreted as it was meant to be. I am also quite sure that if these men had enough vision to see clearly into the future (which is not a reasonable thing to hope for) they would have written it differently, probably with more emphasis on the "well regulated militia" part. The 2nd is an error that will eventually be changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,090 #41 December 6, 2021 2 hours ago, gowlerk said: The 2nd is an error that will eventually be changed. You really don't have a firm understanding of American culture. To even attempt that would make January 6th look like a five-year old's birthday party. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,336 #42 December 6, 2021 12 hours ago, Coreece said: But again, the point here is that we have a vice president and a founding father, both of whom were supposedly intelligent, insightful leaders of the time, and these guys decide that the best way to solve their differences is by shooting at each other? It was a day and age when dueling was normalized, much like school shootings today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,942 #43 December 6, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, BIGUN said: You really don't have a firm understanding of American culture. To even attempt that would make January 6th look like a five-year old's birthday party. Apparently you don't understand the meaning of "eventually". When the far right wing takes over they will be the ones to forcibly disarm the population. People think of an armed population as a conservative thing, but in reality it is an ultimate revolutionary liberal idea. The people in charge will stop it using martial law one day. I have a better grip on American culture than you realize. Edited December 6, 2021 by gowlerk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,450 #44 December 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, gowlerk said: Apparently you don't understand the meaning of "eventually". When the far right wing takes over they will be the ones to forcibly disarm the population. People think of an armed population as a conservative thing, but in reality it is an ultimate revolutionary liberal idea. To wit: The GOP supported gun rights in California only until the Black Panthers began to arm themselves. At that point they passed very rapid gun control laws (under an emergency provision) and none other than conservative icon Ronald Reagan signed it into law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,090 #45 December 6, 2021 17 minutes ago, gowlerk said: When the far right wing takes over You assume the far left would let that happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #46 December 6, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, BIGUN said: 14 hours ago, Coreece said: One of the things that immediately stood out to me was how the numbers for the 2000s were significantly lower than those from the 90s. So something's working, right? By luck; not by design. I'm afraid you might be right. Looking at the numbers, it's quite possible that Death has been getting cheated over the last 5-10 years. Given the substantial increase in the number of incidents lately, let's hope he doesn't collect on any equity that he may be owed. (apologies if that doesn't make sense, it's another poker concept) ETA: I just wanted to note that I'm referring to the last 5-10 years. I think the significant decline from the 90s is legit given the significant decline of all crime during that period. It appears school shootings seem to correlate with gun crime trends in general, at least from what I remember. Edited December 6, 2021 by Coreece Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #47 December 6, 2021 I can understand what motivates a student to shoot up a school. Back in elementary school, I was bullied every day by the same gang of boys. The gang was led by the son of the local Penticostal minster. His sister routinely bullied the girls in my class. Despite my repeated complaints, teachers and parents remained blissfullully ignorant of the habitual bullying. I contemplated carrying a .22 caliber pistol to school. I considered telling bullies to leave me alone, 3 time. If they persisted, I thought about shooting them in the belly. Then I reconsidered the bigger picture starting with adults' willful ignorance. I knew that no adult would listen to my side of the story and would brand me the aggressor. Then I expected them to toss me in a prison or reform school saturated with bullies. In young adulthood, I got physically fit and adopted a surly, macho attitude, just below the threshold of starting fights. As I mellow into old age, I now leave punishment of bullies to God. God or the devil will punish them far more cruelly than I can in this mortal world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #48 December 6, 2021 Brother gowlerk is a long-haul trick driver who frequently delivers to the USA. So he sees more of the USA - in a week - than many US citizens see in a lifetime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,450 #49 December 6, 2021 2 hours ago, BIGUN said: You assume the far left would let that happen. They may not have a choice. Between redistricting, armed insurrections and legal challenges to democratic elections, the right may have found methods to deny power to those they see as enemies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,942 #50 December 6, 2021 3 hours ago, BIGUN said: You assume the far left would let that happen. How will they stop it? Gerrymandering and restricting voting perhaps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites