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Gary73

Sticky Javelin Freebag?

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So yes, all Javelin freebags are made of fabric that's sticky on the inside, but I have one here for a scheduled repack that's so sticky that it didn't want to let go of the reserve fabric, even after 90% of the reserve was extracted.  Is there a good way to un-sticky a bag like this?  Talcum powder, maybe?

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18 hours ago, Gary73 said:

Got the replacement.  The fabric is smooth and non-sticky on BOTH sides.  What a concept!

 

On 10/21/2021 at 8:26 PM, Gary73 said:

So yes, all Javelin freebags are made of fabric that's sticky on the inside, but I have one here for a scheduled repack that's so sticky that it didn't want to let go of the reserve fabric, even after 90% of the reserve was extracted.  Is there a good way to un-sticky a bag like this?  Talcum powder, maybe?

Why would it be sticky?

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32 minutes ago, chuckakers said:

 

Why would it be sticky?

They have always been made of a white parapack type material with urethane coating on one side, like cordura normally is. I'm not sure why, but I suspect it was just the standard from the textile mill for that particular fabric which is often used where water resistance is important. The thickness of the coating was never consistent and often it was quite sticky. In the the last at least a couple years Sunpath seems to have changed the material to uncoated and the newer bags don't have the problem. I don't think it was ever bad enough to cause a reserve malfunction or anything like that, but it made the job of inserting the reserve into the bag difficult sometimes. 

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1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

They have always been made of a white parapack type material with urethane coating on one side, like cordura normally is. I'm not sure why, but I suspect it was just the standard from the textile mill for that particular fabric which is often used where water resistance is important. The thickness of the coating was never consistent and often it was quite sticky. In the the last at least a couple years Sunpath seems to have changed the material to uncoated and the newer bags don't have the problem. I don't think it was ever bad enough to cause a reserve malfunction or anything like that, but it made the job of inserting the reserve into the bag difficult sometimes. 

Hi Ken,

Re:  I don't think it was ever bad enough to cause a reserve malfunction or anything like that

I seem to remember two incidents of the urethane coating on the Cordura fabric causing the reserve container flaps to stick to the reserve bag.*  One in France & one with a Jav.  Sunpath recalled a bunch of rigs with red reserve flaps.

Jerry Baumchen

* Found during a routine I & R.

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(edited)
6 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

Re:  I don't think it was ever bad enough to cause a reserve malfunction or anything like that

I seem to remember two incidents of the urethane coating on the Cordura fabric causing the reserve container flaps to stick to the reserve bag.*  One in France & one with a Jav.  Sunpath recalled a bunch of rigs with red reserve flaps.

Jerry Baumchen

* Found during a routine I & R.

Yes, Sunpath had a SB for the red Cordura. Some of it had a very thick coating and it would get very sticky especially if in a warm place. This is a different thing with the coating in the freebag. As far as I know it has never been more than just a nuisance.

Edited by gowlerk

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This one was the worst I'd ever seen.  Had to pull fairly hard to get the reserve canopy out of the freebag.  Strange thing is that it wasn't a new bag.  I had packed it many times before with just the usual level of difficulty getting it into the bag.  No idea why it got extra sticky.  And no idea why anyone would ever have thought it was a good idea to use such material.

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2 minutes ago, Gary73 said:

No idea why it got extra sticky.  And no idea why anyone would ever have thought it was a good idea to use such material.

It probably got left in a hot car trunk or some other warm place. That makes the urethane coating get sticky. Sunpath was not the only manufacturer to use this material. The water proofing aspect was likely seen as a good thing, and it came from the mill that way.

 

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Heat can cause a temporary stickiness, but a permanent one seems unlikely.  And it was a mild Summer, with no hot-trunk shenanigans, at least for this particular rig. 

Can't see any value to a waterproof freebag.  If water gets that far into a rig, it's going to be fully opened and spend some time on the drying rack.

Yes, I'm sure it was made that way, but there were uncoated fabrics available that would have been a far better choice for this application, in my opinion.

 

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1 hour ago, Gary73 said:

Can't see any value to a waterproof freebag.

 

The polyurethane coating is not for waterproofing.  The coating adds stiffness to the fabric, so the fabric holds its shape better during manufacturing.  It's the wide fabric equivalent of condition "R" tape and webbing.

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what did other manufacturers use?  why couldn't sunpath use those materials?  i have an old javelin rig and an old raven reserve.  do the new freebags work with the old rigs so i can replace mine?  looks like i may not get that new rig after all, at least not for a bit.

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5 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

what did other manufacturers use?  why couldn't sunpath use those materials?  i have an old javelin rig and an old raven reserve.  do the new freebags work with the old rigs so i can replace mine?  looks like i may not get that new rig after all, at least not for a bit.

Don't overthink it. The Sunpath freebag works fine, even the older coated ones. The newer ones are the same thing just uncoated. Which mostly helps to make them easier for the rigger to get the canopy into the ears. There is no safety issue here. Let me be very clear on that, despite the OP having "pull pretty hard" there has never been an issue with this and there has never been so much of a hint of it causing a malfunction in all the decades that Sunpath has been making the Javelin. It is just a little  thing that riggers sometimes like to bitch about.

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that wasn't the question.  the question was will the new freebag work in my old rig.  i don't like to take chances, and if $100 will prevent the possibility of reserve not deploying, that is a small price to pay for my life.  same reason i got an aad after a year not having one.  a new freebag is a hell of a lot cheaper than an aad.  i would just ask sunpath but they didn't reply to my question when i asked about the harness sizing.  i still need to get those legstraps shortened.  maybe i should just find a master rigger close to me and have it measured.

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8 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

that wasn't the question.  the question was will the new freebag work in my old rig. 

I answered as I did because other people read this forum and you alamist feelings on this could influence others for no reason. If you bought a new freebag from Sunpath for an old pre-K container it may be old stock off the shelf and be the same thing.

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31 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

thank you for that.  guess it stays the same then.  have a great day.

I wouldn't worry about it unless your rigger has concerns, which is unlikely.  I've done at least a thousand Javelin reserve pack jobs, and this is the only one that ever concerned me.

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i wasn't worried about it at all.  i just like to see what is possible and take measures to prevent bad things.  like dacron lines in case of a slammer since i'm old.  it may not prevent rupturing my aorta, but when i need new lines i'm gonna use them.  maybe the better answer would be not jumping a raven as a main, but i love the way it opens and flies.  if there was a possibility of something happening, however slight the probability is, if the outcome is potentially deadly the mitigation is worth it in my opinion.  i have done some searching and have not heard of one instance of it preventing the reserve deployment so am comfortable leaving it as is.  i appreciate the insight you guys have given.

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4 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

that wasn't the question.  the question was will the new freebag work in my old rig.  i don't like to take chances, and if $100 will prevent the possibility of reserve not deploying, that is a small price to pay for my life.  same reason i got an aad after a year not having one.  a new freebag is a hell of a lot cheaper than an aad.  i would just ask sunpath but they didn't reply to my question when i asked about the harness sizing.  i still need to get those legstraps shortened.  maybe i should just find a master rigger close to me and have it measured.

Hi 13,

Re:  if $100 will prevent the possibility of reserve not deploying, that is a small price to pay for my life.

IMO do make the swap.  As you say, the $100 is not much money.  And, you will sleep better.  Just keep trying to contact Sunpath.  Just make sure that you are VERY specific in what you want to buy from them.

I spent 39 yrs building gear under numerous TSO's ( a very small 1-man company ).  I would not jump any rig in which any of that coating comes into contact with anything that needs to deploy.

Jerry Baumchen

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(edited)
18 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi 13,

Re:  if $100 will prevent the possibility of reserve not deploying, that is a small price to pay for my life.

IMO do make the swap.  As you say, the $100 is not much money.  And, you will sleep better.  Just keep trying to contact Sunpath.  Just make sure that you are VERY specific in what you want to buy from them.

I spent 39 yrs building gear under numerous TSO's ( a very small 1-man company ).  I would not jump any rig in which any of that coating comes into contact with anything that needs to deploy.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi Jerry, nearly all deployment bags for mains are made with urethane coated fabrics. For decades all javelin free bags were made with urethane coated fabrics. All sidewinder free bags are made of the same thing. That’s all I have to say about that.

Edited by gowlerk

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I don't get on here much anymore.  But... A jumper who was working construction in the summer and throwing students weekday evenings essentially left his Javelin in the trunk all summer.  Came to me for repack.  It took over 30 lbs of pressure to pull the sticky free bag off the canopy stack after the locking stows were out.  The bag was lifted off the floor between the anchored rig and my scale on the bridle.  Given the force data from the PIA PC freefall testing he would have towed it for a ways after a cutaway.

 

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Aside from what it may take to pull the bag off of the canopy, does this problem pose a threat to the canopy itself? Could the heated sticky stuff degrade the material? If someone had a rig like this stored through the off season (or longer), would replacing the bag be enough, or might the canopy itself be compromised?

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On 3/12/2022 at 3:13 PM, dudeman17 said:

Aside from what it may take to pull the bag off of the canopy, does this problem pose a threat to the canopy itself? Could the heated sticky stuff degrade the material? If someone had a rig like this stored through the off season (or longer), would replacing the bag be enough, or might the canopy itself be compromised?

Again, you are thinking way too hard.

When urethane peels off of para-pack or Cordura, it just flakes off then falls off. Almost zero chance of it affecting the canopy fabric.

Most batches of para-pack and Cordura have urethane coating as water-proofing for the their primary roll: luggage.

The parachute industry is below 1 percent of the "rag trade" so only order small batches of fabric woven to a handful of PIA specs. (e.g. F-111 or Zero-P for canopy fabric.

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