President Biden, critics corner

[wmw999 2,148]

Kind of like McCain in 2000, eh? Not exactly, of course, but he was doing well until all of a sudden he wasn’t — and the power-focused Republican establishment was behind Bush.

Wendy P. 

[brenthutch 388]

46 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Kind of like McCain in 2000, eh? Not exactly, of course, but he was doing well until all of a sudden he wasn’t — and the power-focused Republican establishment was behind Bush.

Wendy P. 

Just as the power-focused Democrat establishment is behind Biden 

[jakee 1,259]

5 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Which buttress my argument even more.

I’m not sure that you can buttress a smoking ruin.

[Phil1111 913]

President Biden is headed to a UAW auto workers picket line today. IMO its a mistake to pick a side in this dispute. He has stated that the UAW gave up allot when the industry was in trouble. That its time to get it back.

Airlines and the auto industry are two low return industries for shareholders because of the dominance of unions in those industries. For autos Tesla a non-union company, enjoys a $20 an hour advantage before any settlement.

More jobs will shift to Mexico and other low cost plants if costs rise too much. US auto companies have lost market share continuously since 1950.

US Market Share by Manufacturer – 1961-2016

Contrary to what UAW spokespersons have said repeatedly. The rising UAW wages don't "drag up" the wages of everyone. They make it difficult for US manufactures to compete with imports.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

3 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

President Biden is headed to a UAW auto workers picket line today. IMO its a mistake to pick a side in this dispute. He has stated that the UAW gave up allot when the industry was in trouble. That its time to get it back...

The workers gave up quite a lot back during the financial crisis back in the 'late zeroes'. 

The execs claimed it was necessary to keep the companies afloat.

Whether that was true or not is irrelevant.

The fact that:

1 - the car companies have posted record profits in the past few years
2 - executive compensation has risen by something like 36%, while 'regular workers' have seen basically nothing (which is a 'real life' pay CUT once inflation is factored in).

is a pretty good indication that the grievances from the unions have some merit.

[Phil1111 913]

15 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The workers gave up quite a lot back during the financial crisis back in the 'late zeroes'. 

The execs claimed it was necessary to keep the companies afloat.

Whether that was true or not is irrelevant.

The fact that:

1 - the car companies have posted record profits in the past few years
2 - executive compensation has risen by something like 36%, while 'regular workers' have seen basically nothing (which is a 'real life' pay CUT once inflation is factored in).

is a pretty good indication that the grievances from the unions have some merit.

Perhaps but executive compensation is irrelevant. That comes our of the pockets of shareholders not union members. The previous union contract sold out new workers for the benefit of existing workers. New workers get as little as $15.78 an hour currently. Which shoots down the argument that these contracts "drags up" the wages of other Americans.

If workers gave up so much why are their costs still $20 an hour higher than Tesla and $10 above US based non big three auto plants.

Auto workers already have profit sharing which they won during the late zeros. "General Motors Co. will deliver its largest profit-sharing payouts ever to employees next month ― up to $12,750 this year to about 42,300 eligible hourly workers, according to the company's financial results released Tuesday....Last year, GM employees could have received up to $10,250 in profit sharing." A grand a month is the quid pro quo for what they gave up before.

UAW workers also receive health benefits at 150% more than what the average US worker receives.

GM stock trades at the same price today as it did in 2010. So if the company is making so much where is the payback for shareholders? Doesn't the widows and orphans that own the company deserve compensation?

[wmw999 2,148]

Everything comes “from the pockets of the shareholders,” because making money for them is more the business of nearly every enterprise in this post-mature capitalism, rather than making products.

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,924]

4 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Perhaps but executive compensation is irrelevant. That comes our of the pockets of shareholders not union members.

What kind of doublespeak is that? The shareholders also pay the workers, or didn't you know that?

[Phil1111 913]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

What kind of doublespeak is that? The shareholders also pay the workers, or didn't you know that?

Shareholders directly vote on the actions of management including management compensation at annual shareholders meetings and through mail, or online votes. They vote for and against the board of directors. The board proposes pay for themselves and for the senior management.

A vote is a direct link between shareholders and the compensation of management.Shareholders do not vote for the pay of employees or did you not know that?

[Phil1111 913]

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Everything comes “from the pockets of the shareholders,” because making money for them is more the business of nearly every enterprise in this post-mature capitalism, rather than making products.

Wendy P. 

Hence the argument that the President should not be picking sides in this strike which he has done. No US president has ever joined in a picket line over a contract dispute. Biden has called a 40% increase in pay justified and told them to "stick with it" today while on the picket line.

In Germany on the other hand negotiation is the SOP. Public sector unions just agreed to 5.5% over two years. They arrived at it through government sponsored arbitration.

[gowlerk 1,924]

45 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

A vote is a direct link between shareholders and the compensation of management.Shareholders do not vote for the pay of employees or did you not know that?

Yes, shareholders pay executives to manage the company and to increase profits. One of the ways to increase profits is to hold down labour expenses which puts more money into the pockets of the shareholders. There does not need to be a direct link in the chain of command to understand who pays the workers. Do you need further explanation?

[jakee 1,259]

53 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

A vote is a direct link between shareholders and the compensation of management.Shareholders do not vote for the pay of employees or did you not know that?

You made the distinction that executive pay comes out of their pockets. Are you somehow under the impression that there are two completely different pots of money in any given corporation? One for things that shareholders do vote for and one for things they don’t?

 

I mean hell - if pay for union members does not come out of the pockets of shareholders then why on earth shouldn’t they get paid more?

Edited September 26, 2023 by jakee

[Phil1111 913]

10 minutes ago, jakee said:

You made the distinction that executive pay comes out of their pockets. Are you somehow under the impression that there are two completely different pots of money in any given corporation? One for things that shareholders do vote for and one for things they don’t?

 

I mean hell - if pay for union members does not come out of the pockets of shareholders then why on earth shouldn’t they get paid more?

Profits goes to shareholders first second and third. Not to anyone else. The short answer for the highest labor demands and costs in the industry is further contracting out and thats what will happen. The US was number one in auto production till 1975 in 2018 China made more than twice twice as many autos as the US. In 2019 Mexico produced twice as many cars as Canada. All as a result of productivity and labor costs shifting.

Currently The US has a 27.5% tariff on Chinese autos. This is how auto markets in other parts of the world will respond to US costs: Kia Australia boss says Chinese car brands will be in Top Five within three years and another story from Australia: "Take, for example, the popular small SUV segment and the price comparison between the Chinese brands and the other big brands. The entry-level MG ZS SUV is priced from $22,990 driveaway while the Toyota Corolla Cross range starts at $33,000 plus on-road costs. That's obviously just one example, but across the board Chinese brand cars tend to have a price advantage over their competition."

The US industry is losing market share abroad and at home. But I guess thats ok with you if auto workers get better pay? You should be chairman of the dying industry daily.

 

13 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Yes, shareholders pay executives to manage the company and to increase profits. One of the ways to increase profits is to hold down labour expenses which puts more money into the pockets of the shareholders. There does not need to be a direct link in the chain of command to understand who pays the workers. Do you need further explanation?

Nothing in those statements is enlightening to anyone here. Link in the chain of command? WTF are you talking about. Why not make an intelligent argument about your personal support of labor rights if thats what you're trying to do?

If you want to just be argumentative try somewhere/someone else. Shareholders have got the short end of the stick in the US auto industry for the last 30 years. Contracting out will be the answer once again. Union labor will get it once again. Existing legacy union workers will get raises. New hires will get nothing, costs will rise and auto plants will go to Mexico, or further offshore.. US auto production will continue to decile until it dies just like furniture manufacturing did in the US.

[gowlerk 1,924]

2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Why not make an intelligent argument about your personal support of labor rights if thats what you're trying to do?

That's not really what I was trying to do. I was just pointing out the contradiction in your statement about executive pay not being relevant because shareholders pay it. I generally am supportive of labour rights but I do not have strong opinions about this particular fight as I have not studied the issues. I suspect both sides are being quite greedy and that a compromise will be reached.

Edited September 27, 2023 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 2,326]

5 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Hence the argument that the President should not be picking sides in this strike which he has done. No US president has ever joined in a picket line over a contract dispute. Biden has called a 40% increase in pay justified and told them to "stick with it" today while on the picket line.

In Germany on the other hand negotiation is the SOP. Public sector unions just agreed to 5.5% over two years. They arrived at it through government sponsored arbitration.

Unions are like condoms. Sure they offer real protection to those who need it but it's a whole lot more fun without them.

[Phil1111 913]

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

That's not really what I was trying to do. I was just pointing out the contradiction in your statement about executive pay not being relevant because shareholders pay it. I generally am supportive of labour rights but I do not have strong opinions about this particular fight as I have not studied the issues. I suspect both sides are being quite greedy and that a compromise will be reached.

I'm indifferent to unions. in some cases where the abuse of workers is widespread they are necessary. But in some cases small numbers of people can use their leverage to muscle outsized benefits because of the high value of the means of production.  Executive pay with perhaps the exception of Elon Musk is a red herring in the situation. Executive pay is highest in the US and the lowest in scandinavian countries. Where in some, executives with high pay packages are ostracized.

The airline industry and the automotive industries are the worst of cyclical business with feast and famine. They are worse than mining, shipping and even oil.

Working poor people and those who take financial risk to employ people need the highest protections. Protections of laws and fair level operating fields. Just my opinion.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Phil1111

[jakee 1,259]

4 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Working poor people and those who take financial risk to employ people need the highest protections. Protections of laws and fair level operating fields. Just my opinion.

And what are the only organisations that provide working poor people with any power to effectively lobby for those laws and fields?

[jakee 1,259]

4 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Executive pay with perhaps the exception of Elon Musk is a red herring in the situation. Executive pay is highest in the US and the lowest in scandinavian countries.

Eh? Executive pay in the US is exceptionally high to a level that's even above other western neo-liberal economies - but with the exception of Elon Musk (the highest paid executive of all) it's a red herring? 

I'm genuinely not trying to be argumentative here - but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. It's like you're trying to take a stand on every side of the issue all at once.

Edited September 27, 2023 by jakee

[okalb 79]

54 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Here we go ... BREAKING NEWS TODAY!!!!! The Biden family took MILLIONS!!!!! Two wires for hundreds of thousands from China using Joe Bidens address.

 

I know that facts mean nothing to you, but wire transfers don't go to a physical address. The address listed is usually the one associated with the bank account. I get wire transfers from all over the world. They go to an account that has my Mother's address on it. There is absolutely nothing illegal or suspicious about it.  You have to either be oblivious or just looking for something to be outraged about, to believe anything nefarious is happening based on the fact that wire transfers listed his father's address. Did they go to his father's account? Of course, they didn't!

[jakee 1,259]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

MILLIONS!!!!! Two wires for hundreds of thousands 

Which is it?

Quote

Two wires for hundreds of thousands from China using Joe Bidens address.

So Hunter as a private citizen who's never been anywhere near government business took money from a Chinese company, and that bothers you. You must be absolutely fucking outraged at the way Jared and Ivanka corruptly profited from the government positions they were gifted by Donald.

When Donald said he'd run the government like a business he wasn't kidding - he ran it exactly like his own business that exists solely for the benefit of himself and his family.

[JerryBaumchen 1,064]

3 hours ago, okalb said:

I know that facts mean nothing to you, but wire transfers don't go to a physical address. The address listed is usually the one associated with the bank account. I get wire transfers from all over the world. They go to an account that has my Mother's address on it. There is absolutely nothing illegal or suspicious about it.  You have to either be oblivious or just looking for something to be outraged about, to believe anything nefarious is happening based on the fact that wire transfers listed his father's address. Did they go to his father's account? Of course, they didn't!

Hi jakee,

As had been said many times here:  You cannot fix some people

Jerry Baumchen

Edited September 27, 2023 by wmw999

[Phil1111 913]

4 hours ago, okalb said:

I know that facts mean nothing to you...

 

3 hours ago, jakee said:

Which is it?

So Hunter as a private citizen who's never been anywhere near government ...

 

2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi jakee,

As had been said many times here:  You cannot fix some people

Jerry Baumchen

Yet some brave people think they can make a dent against all the conspiracy of the right deep state. ...Or is there a different adjective for the hopeless objective?

[brenthutch 388]

Biden is just as unsullied as Senator Menendez. With Biden it is just a few million in a joint banking account with Hunter and a couple of troves of top secret documents, with Menendes, it is just a few hundred thousand dollars in cash stashed in various envelopes and a couple of dozen gold bars.  Nothing to seek here folks, move along, move along.

[jakee 1,259]

Right. Having money in a bank account is exactly the same as hiding gold bars under the floorboards. No reasonable person could possibly disagree.

[Phil1111 913]

12 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Biden is just as unsullied as Senator Menendez. With Biden it is just a few million in a joint banking account with Hunter and a couple of troves of top secret documents, with Menendes, it is just a few hundred thousand dollars in cash stashed in various envelopes and a couple of dozen gold bars.  Nothing to seek here folks, move along, move along.

Unlike the rackets that the GOP runs Dems have openly called for him to resign. You leader has been convicted and admitted to theft again and again.