1 1
Westerly

300,000 new cases yesterday!

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, billvon said:

Yes, sacrificing the old would help us get over the pandemic sooner.  (That's basically the same rationale as the "let everyone get infected so it's over faster" approach.)  Fortunately we don't really see that as a good option.

No it isn't. Physical distancing and solation has shown to prevent spread. In that time you can start vaccinating the young while you work your way up older. That isn't sacrificing the old, it is vaccinating those with the most at risk.

Assuming long term impacts of COVID are severe. Should we use a vaccine to prevent an 89 year old from dying from COVID or should we use it to prevent a 9 year old from 80 years of debilitating effects of COVID?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Man plans. God laughs.

That would make everything an emergency and is a cheap cop-out. We have had 9 months to prepare for a vaccine roll-out. The fact it isn't going well is a disgrace. Never mind that rolling out mass-medication is something that really should already have an established framework. It isn't that unforeseen an "emergency".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

No it isn't. Physical distancing and solation has shown to prevent spread. In that time you can start vaccinating the young while you work your way up older. That isn't sacrificing the old, it is vaccinating those with the most at risk.

Assuming long term impacts of COVID are severe. Should we use a vaccine to prevent an 89 year old from dying from COVID or should we use it to prevent a 9 year old from 80 years of debilitating effects of COVID?

You're mistaken. The only circumstance where such thinking makes sense is where attending physicians ascertain the covid sick patient has little chance of survival. There is NO evidence of the long term disabilities arising from covid. Yes I know all about 75% of covid intensive care patients having reoccurring symptoms. This pandemic is less than a year old.

Age within the ethical discussion of vaccine distribution is largely related to the preservation of life. In addition many studies have shown that younger people are less affected and have lower transmission rates. Those are the factors that have led medical ethicists to lay out the current plans for vaccine distribution. In almost every country in the world. With higher age, comorbidity factors taking precedent over most other factors. in the distribution of vaccine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

There is NO evidence of the long term disabilities arising from covid. Yes I know all about 75% of covid intensive care patients having reoccurring symptoms. This pandemic is less than a year old.

You're wrong about that first point -- there are a number of cases of patients who weren't in intensive care who seem to have long-term effects. Some of the more visibly associated with COVID are things like permanent (so far) loss of sense of smell and/or taste.

However, because the pandemic is only a year old, nearly all data is going to be anecdotal -- the people who would be in charge of tabulating are too busy either treating, or tabulating higher-priority stuff, like vaccine efficacy etc. All that tabulation depends on hospitals and doctors figuring out that something is associated with COVID, and then sharing it on some platform that lends itself to statistical analysis.

That'll be a long time coming.

Anecdotally, a friend of mine who's pretty sure he's had it twice, said that while the loss of sense of smell, fever, and cough manifested both in March and last month (he and his wife both have very high exposure non-medical jobs), this last time he was sick as a dog, with midsection pain and some yellowing that made him think there was some liver involvement.

Of course, unless you're really sick, you don't go see the doctor with COVID, as all they can do is supportive therapy. Billvon said early that one point of view is that this isn't a respiratory disease, it's a vascular disease that catches and manifests in the respiratory system. It's a good perspective to take, I think

Wendy P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

You're mistaken. The only circumstance where such thinking makes sense is where attending physicians ascertain the covid sick patient has little chance of survival. There is NO evidence of the long term disabilities arising from covid. Yes I know all about 75% of covid intensive care patients having reoccurring symptoms. This pandemic is less than a year old.

Age within the ethical discussion of vaccine distribution is largely related to the preservation of life. In addition many studies have shown that younger people are less affected and have lower transmission rates. Those are the factors that have led medical ethicists to lay out the current plans for vaccine distribution. In almost every country in the world. With higher age, comorbidity factors taking precedent over most other factors. in the distribution of vaccine.

Organ damage caused by COVID-19

Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can damage many other organs as well. This organ damage may increase the risk of long-term health problems. Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:

  • Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
  • Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.
  • Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.

Sourced from Mayo Clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351#:~:text=U.S. coronavirus map.-,COVID-19 (coronavirus)%3A Long-term effects,completely within a few weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

You're wrong about that first point -- .... It's a good perspective to take, I think

Wendy P.

 

1 minute ago, ryoder said:

Well whatabout...... I guess I'm wrong and skydecker makes a VALID point. Although I sustain my view that life supersedes the possible lingering and what is still short term (less than a year is still short term) and what can be isolated severe symptoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

 

Well whatabout...... I guess I'm wrong and skydecker makes a VALID point. Although I sustain my view that life supersedes the possible lingering and what is still short term (less than a year is still short term) and what can be isolated severe symptoms.

I have also read multiple articles that some researchers are studying the theory that the organ damage is not caused by the virus its self, but an autoimmune disease that is triggered by the virus. At this point it is just a theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I have also read multiple articles that some researchers are studying the theory that the organ damage is not caused by the virus its self, but an autoimmune disease that is triggered by the virus. At this point it is just a theory.

There is allot to learn. Including vaccine effectiveness where delayed second doses are at issue. I guess my thinking originated subsequent to reading an article that suggested the long term status of Covid19 will be a early childhood inconvenience. Obviously after the whole world is vaccinated and variants of the virus are properly put into their place by medical science.

Until the wet markets of China unleash the next trans-species virus on the world. Which at its current pace should be about 2026

Edited by Phil1111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

That would make everything an emergency and is a cheap cop-out. We have had 9 months to prepare for a vaccine roll-out. The fact it isn't going well is a disgrace. Never mind that rolling out mass-medication is something that really should already have an established framework. It isn't that unforeseen an "emergency".

The covid emergency is causing shutdown, lock downs, curfews and general disruption on a huge scale. A slow motion emergency. People who need medical care for other things can't get it because the hospitals have to put so many resources into treating people who are very sick with covid. The most effective way of lowering that number is to vaccinate those most likely to be filling those beds. And that is exactly what the plan is right now.

Do you work in healthcare? If you did there is a very good chance that you would see the situation as the emergency that it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

The covid emergency is causing shutdown, lock downs, curfews and general disruption on a huge scale.

All the more reason to vaccinate those who are not retired and are of working age, so this can be minimized. Vaccinating the nursing home residents does nothing to change this.

 

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

People who need medical care for other things can't get it because the hospitals have to put so many resources into treating people who are very sick with covid.

Currently only about 20% of COVID infections is people aged 60 and over. Yes, hospitalizations is on the older end, but it always is. Again, short term gain resulting in long term pain. I will ask you again, should the vaccine be used to give somebody above the average life expectancy extra years, or to prevent a 9 year old from 80 years of debilitating disease?

Source

Should we have a short-term view or a long-term view? Should this be based on what helps in the next election, or what helps society over the next century?

I don't work in healthcare, but have immediate family that does. I also have parents and 1 more grand-parent who this would effect. They all see the reasoning, we have had good debates around this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

No it isn't. Physical distancing and solation has shown to prevent spread.

The degree you can distance depends on how capable you are.  If you are a 30 year old well to do guy, you can stay at home. get everything delivered and be almost completely isolated.  If you are an 80 year old woman that needs help getting dressed and is in the doctor's office once a month, it's nearly impossible.

If the 30 year old gets sick he spreads to no one, and is probably going to be able to stay at home with perhaps one visit to the doctor.  If the 80 year old gets sick she spreads to her caretakers, her doctor, her driver - and then ends up in an ICU bed for two weeks before she dies.  Vaccinating her reduces spread of the disease, frees up a hospital bed and saves a life.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

That would make everything an emergency and is a cheap cop-out. We have had 9 months to prepare for a vaccine roll-out. The fact it isn't going well is a disgrace. Never mind that rolling out mass-medication is something that really should already have an established framework. It isn't that unforeseen an "emergency".

Yea, well thank that on no centralized leadership. Currently the process for the vaccinate roll out program is hey, just send us your address and we'll send you some doeses of whatever. You'll just have to see when it shows up in the mail. Then when it does show up in the mail the instructions are to the effect of 'inject into patient' and that's about it. So yea, everyone is doing everything different becasue no one is being told what to do so everyone just makes stuff up as they go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, gowlerk said:

The covid emergency is causing shutdown, lock downs, curfews and general disruption on a huge scale.

No, human idiocy, politics and complete disregard for others are causing those things. None of those things would be necessary anywhere if people just followed the CDC guidance and used their damn brains. But people want to live life like everything is fine and pretend that wearing a mask means they are forced into some USSR-era communism state. That's what is causing the lock downs. There are plenty of countries who have no lockdowns because their citizens actually follow the rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, billvon said:


If the 30 year old gets sick he spreads to no one, and is probably going to be able to stay at home with perhaps one visit to the doctor.  If the 80 year old gets sick she spreads to her caretakers, her doctor, her driver - and then ends up in an ICU bed for two weeks before she dies.  Vaccinating her reduces spread of the disease, frees up a hospital bed and saves a life.

 

The problem is that scenario only exists in the text box that you wrote it in. In the real world outside of this website, the 30 year old is going to the club, not giving a fuck, and spreading it around everywhere because 'I have a 99.9% chance of survival anyway, so big deal'. That's what most people are doing right now, not staying at home completely isolated. I would bet my left nut less than 10% of those in their 30s and 20s are staying home entirely and completely isolated. I am pretty sure most of those in that group are living life normally or with some level of normalcy.

Edited by Westerly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Billvon said early that one point of view is that this isn't a respiratory disease, it's a vascular disease that catches and manifests in the respiratory system. It's a good perspective to take, I think

It's more than a point of view or good perspective, it's been an accepted medical fact for quite some time.

9 hours ago, ryoder said:

Organ damage caused by COVID-19

Especially alarming is the prevalence

 

of this damage. IIRC the studies I saw on heart and brain inflammation showed it in a *majority* of cases, even mild or asymptomatic. That's horrifying.

1 hour ago, Westerly said:

Then when it does show up in the mail the instructions are to the effect of 'inject into patient' and that's about it.

What instructions are needed? The people doing the injections know how to do them. I haven't heard of that being a problem.

Re: who to vaccinate first, I think it makes sense to start with frontline healthcare and the vulnerable, but I don't have strong feelings on that compared to how I feel about letting doses expire because they can't find enough people who are currently eligible...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, nwt said:

It's more than a point of view or good perspective, it's been an accepted medical fact for quite some time.

Especially alarming is the prevalence

 

of this damage. IIRC the studies I saw on heart and brain inflammation showed it in a *majority* of cases, even mild or asymptomatic. That's horrifying.

What instructions are needed? The people doing the injections know how to do them. I haven't heard of that being a problem.

Re: who to vaccinate first, I think it makes sense to start with frontline healthcare and the vulnerable, but I don't have strong feelings on that compared to how I feel about letting doses expire because they can't find enough people who are currently eligible...

My wife (MD) does "vaccinator training" today.

I got a shot yesterday because otherwise it would have gone to waste after the intended recipient bailed and I happened to be in the right place at the right time.  Clinic said if I hadn't been there it would have had to be discarded.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, kallend said:

My wife (MD) does "vaccinator training" today.

I got a shot yesterday because otherwise it would have gone to waste after the intended recipient bailed and I happened to be in the right place at the right time.  Clinic said if I hadn't been there it would have had to be discarded.

I am happy you were able to get a shot John.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My wife was vaccinated on Monday.  She is at this moment fighting a Covid-19 outbreak at her facility.  12 of the 32 DD residents are positive and in full blown symptoms.  The other 20 were vaxed yesterday.

On a brighter note she has managed to keep the other 20 from being infected only by setting up what looks like a hospital ward.  Down side is she's worked 15 days straight in full covid protective gear.  Because we live about 40 minutes from the facility she got a hotel room 5 minutes away for herself and her ADON.  If she can keep the new cases to zero for another week the crisis will have been averted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

1 1