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PlaneFun

What Usually Comes w/ a Used Canopy?

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5 hours ago, PlaneFun said:

Going to buy a used canopy for the first time and just wondering if private sellers usually just sell the canopy alone or also the pilot chute and D-Bag? Thanks

The only people who include the p/c bag and sometimes risers are those who do not have a clue. They do it because it's the least amount of disassembly work. They later find out that they have given away hundreds of dollars worth of container parts. Usually when they try to sell the container and no one wants it because the expensive parts are missing. 

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On 12/14/2019 at 4:02 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Slinks get tossed

this is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Canopies come with links when they are purchased new, and used canopies should too. Whether or not those links are serviceable should be up to the purchaser/assembling rigger. It is an enormous drag as a rigger to have to ask a customer for an unexpected $35 ($25. whatever they cost now) because the seller kept or cut the soft links.


 

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39 minutes ago, betzilla said:

It is an enormous drag as a rigger to have to ask a customer for an unexpected $35 ($25. whatever they cost now) because the seller kept or cut the soft links.


 

More $ than that if I have to untangle lines because the canopy was shipped without links.

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56 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

when you make your own for about $5.

If y'all need new soft links and don't want to pay $25, Jerry's your guy! Lol.
I'm fine with homemade ones (on mains) that are in good shape, but I've never personally made my own, and am not about to start now.

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8 hours ago, betzilla said:

this is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Canopies come with links when they are purchased new, and used canopies should too. Whether or not those links are serviceable should be up to the purchaser/assembling rigger. It is an enormous drag as a rigger to have to ask a customer for an unexpected $35 ($25. whatever they cost now) because the seller kept or cut the soft links.


 

Well, the seller should include them. 

I agree that it should be the call of the rigger assembling the rig, but I'm also a bit conservative on that. 

I wouldn't reuse slinks that came with a used canopy, unless they were in absolutely pristine condition. It's too easy to 'cheap out' and say 'well, they're used but they look ok'. 

I put new slinks on my used canopy when I got my rig. 8 years and maybe 400 jumps later, I put new ones on again when I got the canopy relined. The cost is minor. The consequences of a failure are not.

So the 'slinks get tossed' comment is a reference to what I would suggest the buyer do. 

And not securing the bottom end of the lines with something is inexcusable. I've used 'twistie ties' (like from bread bags) and I've seen zip ties (cable ties) used. 

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14 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I wouldn't reuse slinks that came with a used canopy, unless they were in absolutely pristine condition. It's too easy to 'cheap out' and say 'well, they're used but they look ok'. 

That's why you let a rigger look at it and determine if they are still airworthy. It's an absolute waste to throw away slinks because it's not you but someone else who put 50 jumps on them. A rigger will (should) be able to look beyond jump numbers, and determine if the actual state of the slinks merit replacement.

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4 hours ago, richoH said:

I'm still basically apoplectic with rage that a reserve I bought recently came without slinks.

I've always held that slinks are good for the lifespan of a lineset, I don't really see why changing owners would affect that.

I don't know about rage. But I would also be pissed if I bought a used canopy, reserve or main, and links were not included.

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14 hours ago, gowlerk said:

I don't know about rage. But I would also be pissed if I bought a used canopy, reserve or main, and links were not included.

I'm exaggerating but the process of getting all the line groups back together, straightened out and then trying to find a straight answer for which of the two continuous lines was meant to be on the inside of the link took longer than packing the rig up when I was done :(

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1 hour ago, richoH said:

I'm exaggerating but the process of getting all the line groups back together, straightened out and then trying to find a straight answer for which of the two continuous lines was meant to be on the inside of the link took longer than packing the rig up when I was done :(

That wouldn't bother me that much. But the $35 for a set of reserve Slinks would annoy me. Unless it was disclosed at the time of sale, those links go with the canopy and belong to the buyer. If you have non-cascaded A-B centre lines you likely were using either a Raven or a Tempo, Usually people put the B lines on the outside. But as far as I know it is not specified anywhere that I can find and it does not really matter. Tempos always come with nice #5 stainless steel Mallion Rapide links. Sometimes sellers will try to keep them, or even substitute crappy inferior links.

Edited by gowlerk

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Back during the 1980s(?) canopy manufacturers ganged up against harness-container manufacturers to write the PIA Standard that says that canopy manufacturers only need to supply: canopy, lines, links, slider, manual and reserve packing data card.

If anyone tries to sell you a canopy missing those key items, demand your money back!

The reserve packing data card goes with the reserve canopy, since reserve canopies often out-live containers. If the card includes notes about Service Bulletins done in the harness/container, then a photo-copy of the RPDC goes with the H/C. If the AAD battery replacement or factory inspections are noted on the RPDC, then a photo-copy of the card goes with the AAD.

Sometimes selling a used container without risers, goggles, d-bag and pilot-chute is a blessing because those are high-wear items.

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(edited)
On 12/17/2019 at 5:30 AM, betzilla said:

this is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Canopies come with links when they are purchased new, and used canopies should too. Whether or not those links are serviceable should be up to the purchaser/assembling rigger. It is an enormous drag as a rigger to have to ask a customer for an unexpected $35 ($25. whatever they cost now) because the seller kept or cut the soft links.


 

Not all of them do. I have purchased new canopies that did not include slinks from the manufacturer. I would not say that is should be implied that the canopy comes with slinks. If the seller does not state that slinks are included, I'd assume they are not included. Only about half of the used canopies I bought included slinks. I dont care as I use my own slinks regardless, but if you really want the slinks, I'd say as the buyer it's your obligation to clarify with the seller what the terms of the sale are.

edit: reserves are different because the slinks are part of the TSO process and so the correct slinks need to be used to meet the TSO requirement. Mains are not TSO certified and therefore there are no requirements for attaching the canopy.

Edited by 20kN

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9 minutes ago, 20kN said:

I have purchased new canopies that did not include slinks from the manufacturer. I would not say that is should be implied that the canopy comes with slinks.

I would call bullshit on this. Unless you are talking about BASE or other non-skydiving canopies. However, you are right that when you buy a used canopy by mail with no inspection you never know what you will get in the end.

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(edited)
24 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I would call bullshit on this. Unless you are talking about BASE or other non-skydiving canopies. However, you are right that when you buy a used canopy by mail with no inspection you never know what you will get in the end.

You can believe what you want. The fact remains. One canopy that I purchased brand new did not include slinks or quicklinks. Another canopy included quicklinks, but not slinks. They were both skydiving canopies, but from less mainstream brands. Any canopy from any of the big name companies I would expect absolutely would include slinks.

Edited by 20kN

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(edited)
45 minutes ago, 20kN said:

Another canopy included quicklinks, but not slinks.

What are quicklinks? Canopies shipped with Dacron lines usually are on Mallion Rapide links. And PD offers them instead of Slinks if you order them that way. But either way, skydive canopies from the manufacturer will always come with links to attach them to risers. That is the agreed upon PIA standard. Containers makers supply risers and canopy makers supply links.

Edit, never mind the question about quick links. I see that is a generic name for what we are both speaking of.

Edited by gowlerk

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21 hours ago, gowlerk said:

What are quicklinks? Canopies shipped with Dacron lines usually are on Mallion Rapide links. And PD offers them instead of Slinks if you order them that way. But either way, skydive canopies from the manufacturer will always come with links to attach them to risers. That is the agreed upon PIA standard. Containers makers supply risers and canopy makers supply links. 

Edit, never mind the question about quick links. I see that is a generic name for what we are both speaking of.

This canopy shipped with Spectra lines, not Dacron lines. The PIA standard is an optional suggestion, not a legal requirement. There are numerous examples of companies ignoring the PIA. For example, what's quite likely the largest canopy manufacturer in the world does not measure the size of their canopies using the PIA standard. They use their own standard. Consequently a 150 from this company will not be the same size as a 150 from a different company. Pack volume is also something that has a PIA standard but many manufacturers do not follow. Without a legal requirement for manufacturers to follow these standards, they are little more than suggestions which can be ignored completely at will.

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3 hours ago, 20kN said:

The PIA standard is an optional suggestion, not a legal requirement. 

Now, no one said anything about a legal requirement. It is an industry standard. I'm not sure why you are pressing this. It's a non-issue.

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Dear 20KN,

PIA standards are considered “industry best practices” and anyone who does not follow them is considered annoying.

As for canopy measuring methods ... a bewildering array of canopy measuring methods were used before PIA standardized on Para-Flite’s method. Para-Flite and PIA measure chord straight from the trailing edge to the top leading edge. That was easy to measure on end ribs of square canopies.

But after tapered canopies were introduced (circa 1990) it became increasingly difficult to measure inner ribs and do all the math.

Perormance Deaigns introduced a simpler method which uses bottom skin chord. By 2001 many other manufacturers (e.g. Icarus) adopted PD’s method, so now PD’s method is the defacto standard for measuring ram-air canopies. IOW that boat sailed 20 years ago.

This caused confusion when PD started selling reserve canopies because PD reserves packed bulkier than preceding reserves for two reasons: greater top skin area (than PIA) and more spanwise reinforcing tapes. PD needed span-wise reinforcing tapes because their reserves were the first designed to be loaded more than 1 pound per square foot. IOW PD reserves fly “bigger” than old measuring systems suggest.

As for canopy bulk measuring methods ... I used to work alongside Sandy Reid (Rigging Innovations) when he measured large numbers of canopies by the PIA method. Sandy compressed canopies into the PIA standard cylinder, then handed them to me to test-pack into the latest models of Talon containers. Canopy volume - same inflated size from the same manufacturer - varies for a variety of reasons: different thicknesses of fabric, different coatings, different humidity, etc. Bulk varied widely during the early 1990s as various fabric mills learned how to weave zero porosity fabric. Early Triathlons varied as much as 30 percent by volume as Gelvenor Fabric Mills (South Africa) learned how to calendarize and coat fabrics.

The other issue is different canopy/container densities recommended by container manufacturers. That fashion has definitely gotten tighter over the last 30 years. Just because the best rigger - at the factory - can a 123-sized reserve reserve into a specific sized container does not mean that Joe Field Rigger can do the same, especially when all the subtle factory tricks are not written down. This becomes doubly difficult when the factory rigger packed in a humid loft while Joe Field Rigger struggles in a bone-dry desert. Humidity can decrease pack volume by easily 10 percent.

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