rape defendant from 'good family' deserves leniency

[JerryBaumchen 1,062]

Hi folks,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48858761

'An appeals court has criticised a judge who ruled that a 16-year-old accused of rape should not be tried in an adult court as he was from a "good family" and attended an "excellent school".'

Thoughts?

Jerry Baumchen

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

The judge also said the video that the boy is alleged to have sent to his peers was "just a 16-year-old kid saying stupid crap to his friends".

I think whatever system they use to select Judges in those parts is broken.

 

I think it also shows pretty clearly that social justice (or lack of) is a real thing.

[billvon 2,426]

26 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48858761

'An appeals court has criticised a judge who ruled that a 16-year-old accused of rape should not be tried in an adult court as he was from a "good family" and attended an "excellent school".'

Thoughts?

Jerry Baumchen

Unfortunately not uncommon.  White male privilege is a powerful thing.  The case also has the hallmarks of the usual dismissal of such crimes - questioning of the victim's honesty/integrity ("Some people would argue that . . .how could she possibly have gotten as drunk as she says she was?") and trivialization of the crime itself (it was "just a 16-year-old boy saying stupid crap to his friends".)  Add some gaslighting and you have the usual trifecta.

It's unfortunate that at least parts of society seem to be heading in the direction for greater acceptance of sexual assault.  "Not a big deal; just something some guys do sometimes.  Sure, I guess it's 'bad,' but he's a good kid!  Leave him alone."

[JerryBaumchen 1,062]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

It's unfortunate that at least parts of society seem to be heading in the direction for greater acceptance of sexual assault.  

Hi Bill,

 I have a daughter & a son.  I also have a grandson & a granddaughter.  I can assure that I do not have a 'greater acceptance of sexual assault.'

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 1,923]

I would guess that this is a judge who did similar things as a young man. He can relate, and he probably comes from the same sort of background. Only if a big deal is made of it at the appeal level and in society in general will it stop being acceptable. Both the offender and the judge need to be made examples of.

[billvon 2,426]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

 I have a daughter & a son.  I also have a grandson & a granddaughter.  I can assure that I do not have a 'greater acceptance of sexual assault.'

Jerry Baumchen

Nor do I, nor the place I work.

But we have a president who is regularly accused of sexual assault; who in fact brags about it.  When a woman recently came forward to accuse him of rape, his defense was effectively "eh, lots of women say that, no one will listen to her either."  And since she was either number 2, number 11 or number 25 (depending on how you count the assaults) - he was largely right.  During the recent Supreme Court confirmation hearings, a woman accusing a nominee of sexual assault was told (again, effectively) "we believe you, we just don't care."

And many men support Trump BECAUSE of that.  Because he "stands up" to women who accuse him of sexual assault.  He grabs then by the pussy and they can't do anything about it because he's famous.  And a certain subset of men like that; indeed, they seem themselves as falling into the same category, and enjoy having a hero they can point to who doesn't put up with crap like rape and assault allegations.  GOP congressman Joe Walsh tweeted, “If stupid, bad, or drunken behavior as a minor back in high school were the standard, every male politician in Washington, DC would fail.”  Presumably himself as well.  And when rape and sexual assault get redefined as "stupid behavior" or "stupid crap" then it's much easier to ignore it, or explain it away.

We'd like to think it's getting better - but 25% of the women in America have been raped by age 40.  One in four.  And there's an expanding opinion that many (if not most) rape allegations are made by women who want to sell books, or get sympathy, or just get revenge on a boyfriend they didn't like.  Or who are ugly and therefore could not have been raped.  Or who were drunk or wearing suggestive clothing, so what did they THINK would happen?

I have friends who have been raped.  And when I talk to other friends about those experiences, quite often I hear about how they, too, were raped or sexually assaulted.  They don't report it because they don't want to get fired, or kicked out of school.  They are told no one will believe them, and that they'll never work in the industry again if they do, and that they were imagining it anyway.   And those women look at the Trump assaults, and the Kavanaugh assault, and the New Jersey case, and think "they're right."

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

3 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

Thoughts?

Jerry Baumchen

Hi Jerry,

 

My thoughts:

The judge is a piece of garbage. His defense of the accused and his definition of what 'rape' is disgusts me.

 

But (and it's an important 'but') the story is making headlines because the prosecutor appealed the judges ruling.

The prosecutor wanted to try the accused as an adult. The judge made his atrocious comments when he ruled that the case should stay in 'Family Court' (presumably juvenile court).

The appelate courts over ruled the judge and agreed with the prosecutor. This case will be tried in adult court. The 16 year old will face a real trial.

Quote

The two-judge appellate panel also admonished Troiano for sounding like he was conducting a trial instead of “neutrally” reviewing the Monmouth County prosecutor’s waiver motion.

“That the juvenile came from a good family and had good test scores we assume would not condemn the juveniles who do not come from good families and do not have good test scores from withstanding waiver applications,” the appellate judges wrote in a 14-page ruling issued on June 14.

The appellate judges reprimanded Troiano for “[deciding] the case for himself” by considering the accused boy’s “prior good character.”

The judge “sounded as if he had conducted a bench trial on the charges rather than neutrally reviewed the State's application,” the appellate panel said.

With the appellate panel’s ruling, the case will be heard in the Superior Court of New Jersey, instead of family court.

Buzzfeed article (a search will find a lot more, but they are all saying pretty much the same thing):

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tasneemnashrulla/new-jersey-judge-teen-accused-rape-good-family

[JerryBaumchen 1,062]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

 “If stupid, bad, or drunken behavior as a minor back in high school were the standard, every male politician in Washington, DC would fail.”  

Hi Bill,

I have always said that what happened at 17 yrs old, in the back of a Chevy should not matter very much to someone running for some office at 50 yrs of age.

That does not mean rape, it does mean consensual whatever.

IMO Kavanaugh should have admitted it, apologized and accepted whatever the vote would be.  And he would still have been confirmed with today's Senate makeup.

His crocodile tears showed me that he is a coward.

Jerry Baumchen

[millertime24 8]

Remind me, what has Kavanaugh done? And please provide proof, not "he said she said".

[billvon 2,426]

1 hour ago, millertime24 said:

Remind me, what has Kavanaugh done? And please provide proof, not "he said she said".

Thus are many accounts of rape and sexual assault dismissed.

[millertime24 8]

36 minutes ago, billvon said:

Thus are many accounts of rape and sexual assault dismissed.

Accounts? As in "he said she said"? I asked for proof. Are you unable to provide any? 

[billvon 2,426]

21 minutes ago, millertime24 said:

Accounts? As in "he said she said"? I asked for proof. Are you unable to provide any? 

Yes.  "He said she said." 

I know of two women who have been raped who have nothing more than "she said."  Would you tell them they are imagining it since they have no hard proof, other than their experience?  If it was a close friend of yours, would you tell her "sorry, he said she said, so your account is not credible?"

[jakee 1,257]

4 hours ago, millertime24 said:

Remind me, what has Kavanaugh done? And please provide proof, not "he said she said".

What has Harvey Weinstein done? And please provide proof, not "he said she said".

[millertime24 8]

So if I claimed something like "Billvon raped me at a boogie" I would be believed?

I'm simply trying to figure out where the line is drawn here.

[wmw999 2,146]

The line for me, here, is drawn at contemporary accounts; evidence that someone was told when the accused wasn’t famous. That’s often good enough for juries as well. 

Since the testimony of women is worth the same as that of men, what evidence do you have that it didn’t happen? 

However, for the OP, the perpetrator’s age should be taken into account. Not to exonerate, just into account, as it should be in most crimes. 

Wendy P. 

[BIGUN 1,069]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

for the OP, the perpetrator’s age should be taken into account. Not to exonerate, just into account

Bullshit. No matter what age - that girl is destined for a lifetime of trust, relationship, confidence, and other issues. Right here - is the reason that men feel they can get away with it. You can't point fingers at Trump or anyone else in office and say, they were older and should've known better. This shit started when they were in their teens and if they'd seen their teenage friends held accountable; future transgressions would have been avoided.  

Stick a screwdriver in a light socket. You'll learn a lot and those around you will learn what not to do.   

[wmw999 2,146]

It’s just to the extent that age would be taken into account for any crime, no more. 

Wendy P. 

[kallend 1,646]

20 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48858761

'An appeals court has criticised a judge who ruled that a 16-year-old accused of rape should not be tried in an adult court as he was from a "good family" and attended an "excellent school".'

Thoughts?

Jerry Baumchen

The type of school or quality of family is irrelevant. What is relevant is that 16year olds are not adults.  We have juvenile courts for that very reason. The fact that he did something really awful does not magically turn him into an adult. 

[gowlerk 1,923]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

The type of school or quality of family is irrelevant. What is relevant is that 16year olds are not adults.  We have juvenile courts for that very reason. The fact that he did something really awful does not magically turn him into an adult.  

I agree with that principle entirely. But that idea needed to be applied evenly across all classes in society. The system in most states in the US is very quick to charge children and to try them as adults. Especially poor non-white children.

[BIGUN 1,069]

21 hours ago, kallend said:

What is relevant is that 16year olds are not adults.

In Britain; 16 year olds can still join the military. In the U.S. - 17 years old. etc. etc. Seems very adult to me.

I'm sorry and I get that its very democratic to hold the position of - well, they're very young (mental development and all that), but at the same time there are some crimes that are so heinous in my view that it warrants adult penalties.

We're not talking the shoplifting or accidental death (i.e., joyriding results in a death vs. the intent to kill/rape). I'm talking about that intent. A boy under 18 sexually assaults, rapes, and creates a lifetime of mental anguish for a young girl and we should consider it lightly? I still contend this is how it all starts and would further contend that you can't point fingers at someone about being misogynist when they were given a pass for serious sexual transgressions as a youth.

Otherwise, the "Boys will be boys" and "It was locker room talk" becomes acceptable behavior later in life.     

[kallend 1,646]

None of which changes the fact that 16 year olds are  NOT adults. 

[SkyDekker 1,141]

4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

In Britain; 16 year olds can still join the military. In the U.S. - 17 years old. etc. etc. Seems very adult to me.

I'm sorry and I get that its very democratic to hold the position of - well, they're very young (mental development and all that), but at the same time there are some crimes that are so heinous in my view that it warrants adult penalties.

We're not talking the shoplifting or accidental death (i.e., joyriding results in a death vs. the intent to kill/rape). I'm talking about that intent. A boy under 18 sexually assaults, rapes, and creates a lifetime of mental anguish for a young girl and we should consider it lightly? I still contend this is how it all starts and would further contend that you can't point fingers at someone about being misogynist when they were given a pass for serious sexual transgressions as a youth.

Otherwise, the "Boys will be boys" and "It was locker room talk" becomes acceptable behavior later in life.     

I don't disagree. But if you contend that people under 21 cannot make an adult decision around alcohol or cigarettes, how do you then argue they are adults when it comes to other decisions?

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

None of which changes the fact that 16 year olds are  NOT adults. 

No they aren't. 

I think you know that the idea of treating juveniles differently from adults comes from the basic idea that they are too young to understand the gravity of their crimes, form true intent to commit the crime, all of that. 
The principle that the actor must understand that what he did was wrong is long and deeply held in our society. Finding someone 'not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect' is another expression of that. Saying that someone was so mentally ill that they didn't understand that what they did was wrong doesn't happen as often as pop culture would want you to believe, but it happens.

 

The 'pendulum' on juveniles swings back and forth on a fairly regular basis. We go from 'they're kids and don't know what they are doing' to 'they commit these crimes knowing full well that they will just get a slap on the wrist because they are juveniles'. 

We are currently on a bit of a swing back to the 'gentle' treatment, after a decade or so of sending kids to adult court automatically for certain crimes, and giving young teens life without parole. 

In this case, he was 16. Old enough to drive a car, which is a pretty adult activity. He took video. He shared that video, admitting on it that he was committing rape. 

And the prosecutor had to go to a judge to get the accused waived to adult court. 
In this case, the judge didn't say anything about his youth. Or immaturity. Or inability to form intent. Or understand the nature of his crime. 

Just that he came from a good home* And would go to a good school. 
The appellate court agreed with the prosecutor that the accused should be tried in adult court. And that the judge used some really poor reasoning to deny the prosecutors motion.

* - I dunno about anyone else, but I would think that a kid from a 'good home' would know that raping an unconscious girl, videoing it and sharing the video with his friends was not a good thing to do. 

[billvon 2,426]

On 7/4/2019 at 3:32 AM, millertime24 said:

So if I claimed something like "Billvon raped me at a boogie" I would be believed?

I'm simply trying to figure out where the line is drawn here.

Would you be believed?  I don't know.  I would hope at least someone would look into it - would ask me about it, see if the story made any sense, asked where I was, see if this had happened before etc.

Let's ask you the same question.  Let's say you ran a DZ.  One night a woman came running from the direction of the bathrooms crying.  You asked what happened.  She said "a guy came in, stuck his hand down my shirt and . . and . ." and she runs to her car.  A minute later Joe the TM (who often gets a little too drunk) comes from the direction of the bathrooms saying "whatever she said it was a lie!  I didn't do nothing."

Would your response be "OK.  Wheels up at 8, we have a lot of tandems tomorrow."  After all, it's just he said-she said.  Right?

Now let's say this same thing happens 17 times.   Is he still going to be doing tandems for you?

[BIGUN 1,069]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

But if you contend that people under 21 cannot make an adult decision around alcohol or cigarettes, how do you then argue they are adults when it comes to other decisions?

I get it. But, that is more society as a whole. My own personal view on that is - Harming yourself vs. harming others. I've often thought - would teenagers (rebellious stage) be less apt to engage in cigarettes & alcohol if it wasn't so "you're not allowed to do this." I mean they can be responsible enough to drive a 3,000 lb slow-moving bullet at 16.

Thoughts? (from someone who has one fast approaching that age)