AggieDave 6 #26 May 27, 2003 Quote What happens when your foot finds a hole in the landing area? He blows out his knee, like I did last summer doing about the same thing.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #27 May 27, 2003 QuoteToes up - so the heels hit first and not the toes which will break easier and also means they wont catch dragging on the ground and bust the ankle. not quite..i'll leave it to any of the military JMs to explain better, but you dont want to land on your heels..its harder to transition smoothly to a roll if you land on your heels vis the balls of your feet. the exception would be for a rear PLF when landing heel first is pretty unavoidable..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d604 0 #28 May 27, 2003 I’m not sure what emergency landing position would call for any other technique other than the PLF. Even under a high performance parachute the PLF works, it’s the same basic motion just when you get to ride out the forward motion on your back (rig) until you stop moving. Quick review, Set up: feet and knees together, knees slightly bent, roll: feet, thigh, butt, back while keeping the arms in – remember don’t use your arms to break your fall or you might break your arms and keep going, and don’t stop the motion half way through or you lose the advantage of the PLF. See the "practicing the PLF" link from Zenister it has the basics. Knowing the PLF also helps if landing in turbulence, any time there is a moderate amount of turbulence I will get into the set up position in case the canopy drops, 99% of the landings goes as planned in turbulent conditions, but every once and a while you will find your self coming down fast and the PLF might make the difference between walking off the field or being carried off the field. Heck I did it yesterday when I had a down draft just before flare time, I think you were on the load. PS. Email me privately, I’m curious you would perform some technique other than a PLF. Sean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petetheladd 0 #29 May 27, 2003 QuoteQuoteToes up - so the heels hit first and not the toes which will break easier and also means they wont catch dragging on the ground and bust the ankle. not quite..i'll leave it to any of the military JMs to explain better, but you dont want to land on your heels..its harder to transition smoothly to a roll if you land on your heels vis the balls of your feet. the exception would be for a rear PLF when landing heel first is pretty unavoidable.. Hmm... I disagree, certainly my old military JM's bellowed it often enough - TOESSSSSSSSSSSSssssssssssss... UP. I certainly would not want to be up on the balls of my feet doing a twisting motion on the ankle with my full body weight slamming in behind it. The heel has the major shock absorbers attached to it ( the knees ). As long as the ankle is kept solid/immobile, you have beveled your feet to the landing direction, you can naturally roll. No, Not without incident Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #30 May 27, 2003 toes up is to keep you from pointing them..you still dont want to land on your heels though..if your body weight is coming down on you feet much at all your not rolling into it...see Hesitating at contact____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,166 #31 May 28, 2003 Toes up, toes down -- you want to keep your feet in a neutral position that you can not have to think too hard about -- the most important things to think about are maintaining tension, pressure between the legs, and the PLF, and not individual parts of it. I'm a serious PLF nazi. I've probably done thousands of them, having jumped a round for a long time, and taught for about 4 years. It's saved bones more than once for me. I really would rather get some grass or dirt on my rig any day than hurt myself. It's cheaper, quicker, and easier to fix. I think it should be one of the points of emphasis on safety day -- take a chair out to the pit (or some padding if there's still snow) and have everyone practice PLFs. Knowing how to do one is also a serious confidence-builder, because then you know that every landing doesn't have to be perfect. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
poohbeer 0 #32 May 28, 2003 QuoteToes up - so the heels hit first and not the toes which will break easier and also means they wont catch dragging on the ground and bust the http://herbertholeman.com/para/units/plf.htm says the oppposite: "Move the body to form an arc as the PLF continues. Start the PLF when the balls of the feet touch the ground. Do not hesitate on the balls of the feet." ------- SIGNATURE BELOW ------- Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!! "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #33 May 28, 2003 I'm no expert, but I would imagine landing on the balls of your feet would be much better than landing on your heels. The "springyness" of the balls of your feet absorb a good chunk of momentum, transferring the shock up through your heel/ankle, calves, knees and on up. By landing on your heels, you take the chance of "jolting" the lower back. I know this from experience. I had a "stand-up" landing quickly turn into a PLF, and I wasn't in the proper PLF position and landed heel first...it hurt like a bitch. Also, I believe it would be easier to fracture or at a minimum bruise a bone in the heel from such a landing. I prefer: Balls of feet, ankle, calves, knees, thighs, butt, side of body, shoulders - repeat as necessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petetheladd 0 #34 May 28, 2003 QuoteI'm no expert, but I would imagine landing on the balls of your feet would be much better than landing on your heels. The "springyness" of the balls of your feet absorb a good chunk of momentum, transferring the shock up through your heel/ankle, calves, knees and on up. By landing on your heels, you take the chance of "jolting" the lower back. Yes, if you were trying land ninja style on a balance beam without making a sound. The balls of the feet would be better. However The procedure is meant to be as simple and effective as possible - (think of reserve drills). So although using the toes to ball to heel sequence might soften the bang a bit, it increases the chance of you blowing your foot out especially if circumstances are less than ideal i.e. when the doodoo is going down and you scared or inexperienced Quote By landing on your heels, you take the chance of "jolting" the lower back. At the beginning, Only if you lock your legs straight - a no no. Near the end only if you sit on your bottom - also a no no Quote I know this from experience. I had a "stand-up" landing quickly turn into a PLF, and I wasn't in the proper PLF position and landed heel first...it hurt like a bitch. Also, I believe it would be easier to fracture or at a minimum bruise a bone in the heel from such a landing. I prefer: A PLF is not an insurance policy, come down hard and you may still hurt your self but a PLF will usually ameloriate the circumstances. Which is better - having a bruised heel or a busted ankle :: think on it Its good to see people perking up their ears on PLF's. The widespread use of the Square definitely shoved this art into the closet with instructors usually only throwing a nod the PLF's way. No, Not without incident Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petetheladd 0 #35 May 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteToes up - so the heels hit first and not the toes which will break easier and also means they wont catch dragging on the ground and bust the http://herbertholeman.com/para/units/plf.htm says the oppposite: "Move the body to form an arc as the PLF continues. Start the PLF when the balls of the feet touch the ground. Do not hesitate on the balls of the feet." Dont believe a single sketch has all the info there is to have about PLF's embedded in it. A PLF starts before the feet touch the ground. No, Not without incident Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #36 May 28, 2003 >Toes up - so the heels hit first and not the toes . . . Definitely not. A broken calcaneus is one of the more debilitating injuries around; a broken heel may never heal correctly. Broken toes heal without much fuss. Don't forget, a PLF is not done to make your landing comfy, it's to turn a potentially serious injury into a more minor one (or just some bruises.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #37 June 2, 2006 I wanted to resurrect this thread for the same reason Lawrocket started it back in 2003... It's very disheartening to see your buddies walking around with metal plates and screws because they stiff-legged a landing instead of simply PLFing or they tried for the all-mighty stand-up when it was not feasible. AggieDave makes a point that sometimes a PLF is not appropriate where a slide-in would be better and that's true BUT we don't teach students how to slide-in and most (IMO) people don't even know how to properly slide anyway. How often do you see jumpers doing the old tandem butt-slide? How many people compress vertabrae and crack tail bones? Every one of them is unneccessary. Heck, simply knowing HOW to fall (PLF is only one technique) saves injuries and it's surprising to me that so many people have no idea of it. How many do you see trying to stop the fall instead of "going with the flow". I'm a hard-ass and if it were up to me, I would fail every student-training jump that didn't PLF when necessary...well maybe not that drastic but it grinds my shorts to see PLF-trained people breaking and spraining legs and ankles because they didn't take advantage of that training. C'mon instructors...slap your students up side the head if they don't PLF when they should - even if they walk away from it! Disclaimer: PLF will not always prevent injury but I don't think anyone would argue that it helps reduce them.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #38 June 2, 2006 plfs work even when swooping...trust me I had to do it twice last weekend while trying some new stuff Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,166 #39 June 2, 2006 The PLF is most people's most-often used emergency procedure. If they know how to do one. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #40 June 2, 2006 QuoteThe PLF is most people's most-often used emergency procedure. If they know how to do one. Wendy W. It's also the un-coolest looking emergency procedure. Really. It's the one that is used or rarely used on generally survivable events. Cutaways? They are cool. PLFs? No. Not cool. It means something messed up, and you don't want people thinking that it was YOU who messed up. "No shit, there I was, canopy stalled at 15 feet." "We know. We saw." "I tried to stand it up. I thought I could do it." "We know. Sit still. The ambulance will be here in a couple of minutes." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,166 #41 June 2, 2006 QuoteIt's also the un-coolest looking emergency procedure. Really. It's the one that is used or rarely used on generally survivable events.Hey -- I do them, and I tell myself that I'm cool But I'm not the best lander out there. I am, however, a good walker-away-from-landings . Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #42 June 2, 2006 yeah I had soem student tell me the roll I did at the end of my swoop was pretty cool...of course it was at the end of a 300+ foot swoop with avoiding obstacles at the end on rears and wound up with my lines all caught up in my camera...but so what I lived and didnt hurt myself or anyone else... it was a very long 3 seconds or so and the PLF roll save me from injury...so I think that is hella cool... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #43 June 2, 2006 QuoteIt's also the un-coolest looking emergency procedure. Really. It's the one that is used or rarely used on generally survivable events. Personally I like seeing them used. You should have seen the f***ed up landings I saw skydivers armed with BASE rigs do this weekend. There was one person though (obviously skilled), that did a picture perfect PLF and 3 of us that watched all simultaneously said "Nice landing"! ... and we all meant it. I'm not sure if people don't think they're cool, I think it's more like they don't bother learning and practicing them now and then. Feet and knees together, arms out of the way, also means brace for impact. Depending on the landing angle, the knees will hit the chin/chest real quick if your a puss about it. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #44 June 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteso I'm sitting on my foot as I slide across the grass, then I pop up at the end. What happens when your foot finds a hole in the landing area? I had that happen on my last tandem jump. I landed on my ass, and of course the ground was still a little wet from a shower a couple hours earlier. Tried to brace the landing with my heel, the right caught a rut and twisted my right knee. As for PLF, I really do think it's useful, especially in high-wind situations where you've got canopy lift, but the damn thing won't move forward. It's good practice for a more urgent situation. I had that on my last jump. Landed at the alternate field, faced straight into the wind with a couple hundred feet to go. Right when I was dead center over my target, the wind picked up, and I went straight down, still under lift, in the center of the field for a PLF. It's lucky I'd practiced it, or it would've been painful."If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simulacra 0 #45 June 9, 2006 Luckliy it's easier to do PLF's when landing than training them on the ground, the canopy has always kept my arms up so that the rotation from hip to back is alot smoother :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #46 June 9, 2006 QuoteLuckliy it's easier to do PLF's when landing than training them on the ground, the canopy has always kept my arms up so that the rotation from hip to back is alot smoother :) I agree, far easier to practice under canopy than on the ground. Especially when "on the ground" is over a bed of sharp garden pebbles covered loosely by a canvas sheet."If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #47 June 12, 2006 Is it just me or do I detect two people who have no clue here? I'm too appalled to reply to them right now except to say that they should immediately go back to their instructors and discuss PLF techniques and practices....My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #48 June 13, 2006 QuoteIs it just me or do I detect two people who have no clue here? I'm too appalled to reply to them right now except to say that they should immediately go back to their instructors and discuss PLF techniques and practices.... Meaning...?"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawkins121 0 #49 June 13, 2006 practice PLF's on the ground dude.... I only have 54 sport jumps but my 3 years as a paratrooper tells me that PLF's are something you need to practice on the ground... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #50 June 13, 2006 QuoteMeaning...? Did you read the post? "...they should immediately go back to their instructors and discuss PLF techniques and practices...."My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
