Morons and Their Flags

[Elisha 1]

billvon

...

And yes, you would be showing as much disrespect for a firefighter by burning the flag they use for their department. Or by burning a policeman in effigy.

Are those protected as well? Yes. But (IMO) you better have a very, very good reason to do something like that - because the result is that you are expressing that you detest them and what they stand for.

I look at the Kaepernick kneeling protest as similar, but lesser degree thing. Sure, he has the right, but 1) is it effective? He might as well kneel until world peace happens. He could do much more positive things instead and 2) doing more positive things would be much better for him in his own professional image and not just make him look like a foolish douchebag. I personally care even less than a flag burning a**hat.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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In many parts of our country firefighters and paramedics are volunteers. I doubt they do it for the free t-shirts.

That's why I specifically excluded them. Though automatically assuming their main motivation is saving lives as Bill claims, is also not correct.

Of course, none of them could be doing their jobs if there weren't jobs, not worthy of respect, such as mechanics, construction workers, miners etc. Some of those jobs are significantly more dangerous. Yet somehow, because they do not directly impact the safety of another person, they somehow do not command as much respect. I disagree with that position.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

SkyDekker

Really? Unless you have met a lot of voluntary firefighters, I doubt many of them would continue to do their job if they were not going to get paid.

Most people wouldn't continue to do their job without pay.

That doesn't make "pay" the only reason they do their job. Job satisfaction, the feeling that they are helping people (which is why a lot of cops and firefighters do what they do), the opportunity to be a hero, all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with money.

And, as I noted above, most cops, firefighters, EMTs and soldiers could make a lot more money doing something else.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,255]

wolfriverjoe

Something to remember is that soldiers, firefighters, EMTs and police often make a lot less than many professions.

Less than some, whole lot more than others! In the UK an enlisted soldier starts on £18k and through normal promotion (ie. not doing anything special, just not fucking up) is on £30k after about 6 years - without any danger pay or speciality bonuses.

Outside of getting into a very good trade or being an excellent entrepreneur there's not much out there that will offer a school leaver with no qualifications more than £30,000 a year at the age of 24. It is one hell of an incentive.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[airdvr 197]

You've said a lot of ignorant things over the years here but your lack of understanding of what's involved in being in the military today just about takes the cake. It's not just the willingness to put your life in danger; it's the willingness to commit yourself to a life that is uncomfortable at best and most definitely inconvenient.

My children serve their country because they love their country and wanted to give back. I have no problem with someone who burns a flag. They're ignorant as well. At least we know where they're coming from.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jakee 1,255]

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None of the above involve people who are willing to put themselves at personal danger (i.e. people trying to kill them, a fire that is "trying" to do the same) to save your life when it is in imminent danger.

Really? How do you know that? I think you're making quite an unfair generalisation about office workers, to be honest.

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Which is why I tend to hold soldiers (and people like them) higher in my estimation.

It is very rarely, if ever, going to be a soldier's job to save you when you're in imminent danger. That's not actually what they do.

If they happened to be around when you were being mugged then they would probably be more likely to intervene, but mostly because they have had more relevant training in how and when to act in similar situations. If the DMV worker was competent in self defence or a martial art it'd probably be about equal.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,255]

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I look at the Kaepernick kneeling protest as similar, but lesser degree thing. Sure, he has the right, but 1) is it effective? He might as well kneel until world peace happens. He could do much more positive things instead

Why do people always assume it's an either or situation? Kneeling during the anthem takes up what, 3 minutes of his time every week, and if he wasn't kneeling he'd still just be standing there.

Maybe, with all the rest of his time, he can do more positive things as well.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,400]

>Really? How do you know that?

Well, I've hired a lot of people over the years for white-collar jobs, and never once did the job description include putting themselves in harm's way to protect someone else.

>It is very rarely, if ever, going to be a soldier's job to save you when you're in
>imminent danger.

Agreed. But that's what they sign up to do - to intentionally put themselves in harm's way to protect us. (Specifically our country.)

>If the DMV worker was competent in self defence or a martial art it'd probably
>be about equal.

AND if part of her job was keeping her neighborhood safe from said muggers - then I would agree.

[billvon 2,400]

>I look at the Kaepernick kneeling protest as similar, but lesser degree thing.
>Sure, he has the right, but 1) is it effective? He might as well kneel until world
>peace happens.

I don't see that as similar at all.

Kneeling during the anthem? It's an alternative way of showing respect. If he insisted on urinating during the anthem (or mooning people, or flipping them off) then I'd see them as similar - he is doing something to intentionally incite people. But he's not. He is doing his own thing, in a way that still shows respect.

I agree that it's largely ineffective, but that's his problem.

If someone wanted to put a flag behind glass, with the words "black lives matter" printed beneath, then I could see that being similar to Kaepernick's protest. That would surely piss off some people (just as his kneeling does) but it's not done in a way to intentionally offend.

[jakee 1,255]

billvon

>Really? How do you know that?

Well, I've hired a lot of people over the years for white-collar jobs, and never once did the job description include putting themselves in harm's way to protect someone else.

And so those people have no existence or personality outside of what is contained in their job descriptions? They're never willing to do anything that isn't enumerated within their contracts?

Look, I can only respond to what you're saying so if you made a Maybe you made a mistake with what you wrote, but right now that's all I can respond to and it really doesn't make much sense.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,400]

>Only respecting those whose job it is when immediate help is required is too
>narrow a view for me.

I agree - which is why I didn't say that.

>And I have known enough cops who made sure they wouldn't arrive at a fire or
>accident until other people had arrived to place serious doubt with your assertion
>to begin with.

Like I said, there are always exceptions.

>Really? Unless you have met a lot of voluntary firefighters, I doubt many of
>them would continue to do their job if they were not going to get paid.

Most of the firefighters I knew growing up were volunteers. (The Atlantic Steamer fire department to be specific.) Later when I met more salaried firefighters I found the same dedication to helping their community.

Firefighting, like many other low-paying jobs, is not a job you generally take for the money.

[billvon 2,400]

>The US flag is equally the flag of the firefighters as the soldier's, so you show as much
>disrespect to the firefighters by burning the US flag.

Uh - OK. I wouldn't do either one, and very few people attack firefighters, so it would be hard to say one is worse than the other.

>On the flip side, you would show as much disrespect to soldiers as you do to firefighters by
>burning their department's flag... by burning their unit's insignia, not by burning the US flag.

Agreed.

[billvon 2,400]

>And so those people have no existence or personality outside of what is
>contained in their job descriptions? They're never willing to do anything that isn't
>enumerated within their contracts?

Of course not. Now you're just being obtuse.

[TriGirl 268]

rushmc

Oh come on now. It's not really a big deal. Is it? Seeing how Hillary Clinton sponsored a bill as a senator in 2005 it said almost the exact same things that Trump said. Got a comment about that?

I do. Ms. Clinton proposed it in the correct way, to get it discussed and considered (and likely dismissed, if not ignored). It's obvious there are Americans who feel this way, and so the issue was appropriately addressed by the government.

Mr. Trump will soon be the "face" of the U.S., and he's saying these things to the general public over a medium that is akin to speaking directly to them. He is, in essence, speaking for the government in his posts. This is NOT the appropriate way to intelligently discuss and debate the issue.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[TriGirl 268]

StreetScooby

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If you're upset by someone burning a flag you need to get a life.

You clearly were not raised in a culture where being willing to die for your country and its values is something that is a point of pride, discussed over the dinner table, and used as an anchor in political discussions.

What has that to do with a flag? The flag tells you when you make it to the border or where the next group of athletes in the parade are from. Just because anyone has worn it on their arm or lapel while performing their duties on behalf of that society doesn't mean the flag needs any more protection. Parachutes save lives, but we have no problem cutting them up or using them as tents in other circumstances. The values you speak of are service to the society, whether compensated or donated. THAT should be respected.

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The next time you see someone in a uniform, get your shit together and say thank you.

Oh, FFS, please don't. I'm so f'ing tired of hearing that tripe. If you pay your taxes, you pay my salary. That's plenty "thanks." I do what I do because I like it. I don't like living in one place for too long, so the frequent moves are a bonus for me. I get to live in and out of the US, and don't have to look for a job each time or pay for the move. I knew what I was getting into and chose this line of work. I'm not sacrificing shit. [/rant]

If you can't tell, it's a peeve of mine. I have a couple of stock replies when people say that to me: 1) "Thanks for paying my salary," and 2) (usually to TSA agents or other public safety or public health workers) "Thanks for yours."

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[rushmc 18]

TriGirl

***Oh come on now. It's not really a big deal. Is it? Seeing how Hillary Clinton sponsored a bill as a senator in 2005 it said almost the exact same things that Trump said. Got a comment about that?

I do. Ms. Clinton proposed it in the correct way, to get it discussed and considered (and likely dismissed, if not ignored). It's obvious there are Americans who feel this way, and so the issue was appropriately addressed by the government.

Mr. Trump will soon be the "face" of the U.S., and he's saying these things to the general public over a medium that is akin to speaking directly to them. He is, in essence, speaking for the government in his posts. This is NOT the appropriate way to intelligently discuss and debate the issue.

So in your opinion Trump is not allowed his opinion? Sorry but I disagree with you. He has a right to express his opinion as much as anybody else. Bring the president of the United States does not preclude him of that right. As far as bypassing the media using social media. It's A Brave New World and it's going to piss the liberal media Elites off. And I applaud him for that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,255]

billvon

>The US flag is equally the flag of the firefighters as the soldier's, so you show as much
>disrespect to the firefighters by burning the US flag.

Uh - OK. I wouldn't do either one, and very few people attack firefighters, so it would be hard to say one is worse than the other.

No, it's easy to say that one is worse than the other - in terms of disrespect.

Burning the departmental flag of a fire department is always going to be a specific, targeted insult to that fire department. There's no other way to interpret it. Same as burning the insignia of any particular army unit.

Burning the US flag isn't a specific, targeted insult against the military unless the person burning it says it is.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[gowlerk 1,912]

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So in your opinion Trump is not allowed his opinion? Sorry but I disagree with you. He has a right to express his opinion as much as anybody else. Bring the president of the United States does not preclude him of that right. As far as bypassing the media using social media. It's A Brave New World and it's going to piss the liberal media Elites off. And I applaud him for that

Trump's new role is to lead, and to unite. He could be doing a better job of it.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,400]

>Burning the departmental flag of a fire department is always going to be a specific, targeted
>insult to that fire department. There's no other way to interpret it. Same as burning the insignia of any
>particular army unit.

>Burning the US flag isn't a specific, targeted insult against the military unless the person burning it
>says it is.

Agreed, one is a lot more targeted than the other. To me, they still show similar levels of disrespect (albeit to larger and smaller groups of people.)

[rushmc 18]

gowlerk

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So in your opinion Trump is not allowed his opinion? Sorry but I disagree with you. He has a right to express his opinion as much as anybody else. Bring the president of the United States does not preclude him of that right. As far as bypassing the media using social media. It's A Brave New World and it's going to piss the liberal media Elites off. And I applaud him for that

Trump's new role is to lead, and to unite. He could be doing a better job of it.

What trumps roll is is not for you to define. Take care of your own country

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>Trump's new role is to lead, and to unite. He could be doing a better job of it.

This is RushMC you're talking to. When Obama makes the right wing mad, he's so divisive that he is unfit for office. When Trump makes the left wing mad, Rush applauds him.

[jakee 1,255]

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Bring the president of the United States does not preclude him of that right.

No, being the President brings with it responsibilities and standards of behaviour. Responsibilities that he wanted, but does not seem to have the slightest understanding of.

Saying that it's his Right(!) to continue to say anything he wants about any topic in any manner on Twitter simply does not cut it now that he holds the responsibility of the office - unless you're happy for him to be an irresponsible, reckless and feckless President simply because he has an 'R' next to his name.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ryoder 1,384]

billvon

>Burning the departmental flag of a fire department is always going to be a specific, targeted
>insult to that fire department. There's no other way to interpret it. Same as burning the insignia of any
>particular army unit.

>Burning the US flag isn't a specific, targeted insult against the military unless the person burning it
>says it is.

Agreed, one is a lot more targeted than the other. To me, they still show similar levels of disrespect (albeit to larger and smaller groups of people.)

I haven't heard of much flag burning since the Vietnam war. And back then I believe the flag was being used to represent the US govt, not the military.

I knew plenty of people who detested the govt for sending its young men to die in a pointless war on the opposite side of the planet, yet had great respect for the men who had the misfortune of being sent. I've heard stories of returning vets being shown disrespect, but never saw it where I lived in Northern IN.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[rushmc 18]

ryoder

***>Burning the departmental flag of a fire department is always going to be a specific, targeted
>insult to that fire department. There's no other way to interpret it. Same as burning the insignia of any
>particular army unit.

>Burning the US flag isn't a specific, targeted insult against the military unless the person burning it
>says it is.

Agreed, one is a lot more targeted than the other. To me, they still show similar levels of disrespect (albeit to larger and smaller groups of people.)

I haven't heard of much flag burning since the Vietnam war. And back then I believe the flag was being used to represent the US govt, not the military.

I knew plenty of people who detested the govt for sending its young men to die in a pointless war on the opposite side of the planet, yet had great respect for the men who had the misfortune of being sent. I've heard stories of returning vets being shown disrespect, but never saw it where I lived in Northern IN.

Every time a flag is shown being burned on the news the right-wing gains followers. Trump played the media like a Stradivarius.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

SkyDekker

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If there are construction workers out there who regularly put themselves in the way of danger to save other people's lives - then they would have my respect as well. From my experience, though, they put themselves in danger to make money and to build stuff.

And the stuff they build saves other people's lives.

Hospitals, bridges, homes, shelters, stores etc.

Their job is significantly riskier to do that than the job of a police officers.

And I highly doubt most police officers and firefighters chose the job to save lives.

And commercial fishermen. Much more risky than police work, and they FEED people. Without food, people die.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.