Should prostitution be legalized and regulated?

[Coreeece 2]

nolhtairt

I would be in favor of a society where women can be prostitutes of their own volition and choice, with rules and regulations in place of course, plus health care for them provided by the brothel if they work for one as a contractor.

I do not agree with forced servitude or controlling pimped businesses. And there should be a minimum age as well. 18 or up.

...but the increase in sex-trafficking is so closely related to the expansion of the market through legalization, that the only way to disconnect yourself from that is to just ignore it.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Bolas 5]

Coreeece

***Absolutely.

It's already legal but regulated to give sex away for free

...but there's no money in that, and therefore doesn't increase human trafficking inflows. In fact, if all sex was free, the traffickers would be out of business.

I suppose that if you want safe, legal prostitution one could just stick with good old fashioned gold-digging.

Bolas

It's legal to pay for sex as long as it's recorded, so why the hang ups over non recorded sex for money?

The legality and demand for pornography are also driving factors of sex-trafficking. Many of these women are transferred from one strip club to the next and are pornographed for distribution on the internet.

You have to understand that strip clubs, pornography, prostitution and the sex trade are all part of the same dysfunctional family - and those that support it are part of that dysfunction even if they "mean well" in their support of legalized prostitution.

We all know what they say about "good intentions."



So your argument is that because legal and illegal sex workers sometimes have ties to human trafficking, prostitution should stay illegal (and mostly underground) for their protection?

Would say "good intentions" could also apply to your argument, but sounds more like an excuse to back up your religious beleif you want to force on others.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Coreeece 2]

Bolas

So your argument is that because legal and illegal sex workers sometimes have ties to human trafficking, prostitution should stay illegal (and mostly underground) for their protection?

I must've stated my argument at least a half-dozen times already - that legalization increases human trafficking inflows.

"The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows."

Bolas

Would say "good intentions" could also apply to your argument, but sounds more like an excuse to back up your religious beleif you want to force on others.

If you're ignoring the evidence just because you think I'm using it shove my beliefs down your throat, then all I have to say to you is, grow up.

I don't agree with homosexuality, gay marriage or abortion - but I don't see those things as having such a negative impact on society as prostitution does - and for the most part, those issues really aren't any of by business, so I've never actively went out and fought against them.

When it comes to those things, I feel that I can only donate my two-cents to the formation of public opinion whereby perceptions are formed and decisions are made - and hope for the best.

If you can show me that legalized prostitution on average has no effect on human trafficking - or even decreases inflows - and has an overall net positive effect on society, then I wouldn't fight against it, even if I still had moral objections to it.

...but as of now that's not the reality of the situation, so I would have no personal conflict with actively fighting the issue and being the first person in line to vote against it.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,915]

I've been considering your position that legalization would lead to an increase in both the amount of prostitution and an increase in forced, or at least coerced prostitution. I've come to the conclusion that you are absolutely right on the first count, and possibly on the second as well.

Logically the price of the service would go down, and that alone along with a lowering of the associated stigma, would increase both the supply and the demand.

There are other issues, mainly the increase in safety for prostitutes and the right of people to make their own decisions about their morals that come into play as well. It's hard to make a case that two adults should not be able to enter into an agreement for this service. Your main argument against it is morality, your second is that if it is legal some other people may find it easier victimize innocents.

This is holding one group of people from doing something harmless because of something a totally different set of people might do. Hardly fair.

In the end we both agree that prostitution is morally dubious, but we disagree on what it's legal status should be. But one thing for sure is that the current prohibition is neither effective nor applied fairly.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[kallend 1,632]

There is absolutely no doubt that gun ownership increases the murder rate, and murder is morally dubious. Countries with high rates of gun ownership report higher murder rates.

Yet I'm sure you wouldn't argue for gun ownership to be illegal on those grounds.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,127]

Please...

Guns need to be protected in the Constitution. Sex, now that is dangerous!

[Coreeece 2]

kallend

There is absolutely no doubt that gun ownership increases the murder rate, and murder is morally dubious. Countries with high rates of gun ownership report higher murder rates.

Yet I'm sure you wouldn't argue for gun ownership to be illegal on those grounds.

If gun ownership was already illegal in a relatively safe country, and it was shown that decriminalization would increase the murder/crime rate, then I wouldn't be so quick to advocate for legalization.

Gun control advocates have already conceded that it could take generations before we would see any positive effects of an outright ban on guns - and it might even make things worse before they got better, so it's not really a viable option given that within the last 20 years, we have already cut the gun homicide rate in half despite nearly doubling the amount of guns owned.

Furthermore, I've already stated that if it can be shown that legalized prostitution would decrease human trafficking inflows and have overall net positive effect on society, then I wouldn't actively fight against legalization - so your entire premise is false.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

This is holding one group of people from doing something harmless because of something a totally different set of people might do. Hardly fair.

I was just going to leave it alone and not say anything, but since Kallend brought it up, how do you reconcile this statement with your stance on gun control.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

SkyDekker

Sex, now that is dangerous!

What part of "increased human trafficking inflows" don't you understand?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,915]

Coreeece

***This is holding one group of people from doing something harmless because of something a totally different set of people might do. Hardly fair.

I was just going to leave it alone and not say anything, but since Kallend brought it up, how do you reconcile this statement with your stance on gun control.



I see the parallel. My way of justifying it in my mind is simple. Sex is sex, death is death. YMMV. I support the concept of legal prostitution, I can understand why you do not.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,402]

>Gun control advocates have already conceded that it could take generations before we
>would see any positive effects of an outright ban on guns . . .

Agreed. Gun ownership is an important right, and so it should be protected, even if that right carries with it high rates of crime and death when those rights are misused. Guns _should_ be regulated heavily to reduce the incidence of that misuse.

A woman's right to do what she wants with her body is an important right, and should be protected, even if that carries with it the chance of misuse (i.e. human trafficking.) It _should_ be heavily regulated to reduce the incidence of that misuse.

[BIGUN 1,058]

Therefore, if prostitution were legalized; gun violence would go down.

Sorry, Bill. Someone had to do it.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,402]

>Therefore, if prostitution were legalized; gun violence would go down.

And arming those legal prostitutes could reduce exploitation! Now there's a plan both sides could get behind.

[BIGUN 1,058]

Bam!!

Who says both sides of the aisle can't get behind something?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wmw999 2,123]

We allow (and regulate) alcohol, which leads to many negative consequences as well. Not to mention cigarettes, which have virtually none of the positives of alcohol, but which also don't have nearly the association with organized crime.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

Coreeece

*** Sex, now that is dangerous!

What part of "increased human trafficking inflows" don't you understand?

Quote

Nevada is the only U.S. jurisdiction to allow some legal prostitution. Currently eight counties in Nevada have active brothels (these are all rural counties); as of June–July 2008 there were 28 legal brothels in Nevada.[23][24][25] Prostitution outside the licensed brothels is illegal throughout Nevada. Prostitution is illegal in the major metropolitan areas of Las Vegas, Reno, and Carson City, where most population lives; more than 90% of Nevada citizens live in a county where prostitution is illegal.

Prostitution in Rhode Island was outlawed in 2009. On November 3, governor Donald Carcieri signed into law a bill which makes the buying and selling of sexual services a crime.[12] Prostitution was legal in Rhode Island between 1980 and 2009 because there was no specific statute to define the act and outlaw it, although associated activities such as street solicitation, running a brothel and pimping were illegal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_States#Legal_status

So human trafficking is higher in the counties in Nevada where prostitution is legal then the counties where it is illegal?

Has human trafficking in Rhode Island gone down since 2009 or did it go up in the 80s?

As we've seen as marijuana has become more legalized, most of the arguments against doing so have been proven false.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rifleman 61]

I voted for legalisation.

For a lot of years, I had a job where I travelled all over the UK, spending no more than three or four weeks in any one location. I refused to get involved in the dating scene, as I would have felt dishonest and it wouldn't have been fair to the women either. The problem is that meals in restaurants, movies, theatre visits and bars get boring when you're on your own.

My solution was to hire an escort for the evening, go to the theatre, have a meal and enjoy the company. There was never any pressure on the escort to have sex and on many occasions I've said goodnight after a nightcap in the hotel bar. If there was chemistry there, and the escort was happy to, then we'd spend the night together.

I always considered my relationships with escorts in a similar manner to my relationships to other service industry providers - I was paying for her time and company. What happened during that time was between two consenting adults and no-one else's business.

I also notice that nothing has been said about the rise of the male escort industry. I don't hear people complaining about male escorts being trafficked or exploited - double standards, perhaps? Male escorts do it by choice but female escorts are coerced?

Anyone interested in the arguments for and against the "Nordic Model" should explore the English Collective of Prostitutes website as they're currently campaigning to have prostitution decriminalised in the UK.

http://prostitutescollective.net/

ETA: In the interests of transparency, a good friend of mine is an independent escort who earned £30,000 last year. No-one coerced her into it and she does it because she likes the sex and the money. She also has very strict rules about who she accepts as a client.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[winsor 186]

If prostitution was legalized, people might have sex out of wedlock. In addition, there would be money involved.

Since love of money is the root of all evil, love FOR money must be pretty bad as well.

Luckily we have laws in place that prevent prostitution from occurring.

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

******This is holding one group of people from doing something harmless because of something a totally different set of people might do. Hardly fair.

I was just going to leave it alone and not say anything, but since Kallend brought it up, how do you reconcile this statement with your stance on gun control.

I see the parallel. My way of justifying it in my mind is simple. Sex is sex, death is death. YMMV.
Everything is simple when one's appeal to bias allows them to view the world through a monochrome lens, stripping away the tint of reality.

By that logic, one could say that rape is rape, survival is survival - exploitation is exploitation, protection is protection.

...but I think you're better than that.

gowlerk

I support the concept of legal prostitution, I can understand why you do not.

IF THERE WAS ONE POINT I'D LIKE TO GET ACROSS
We shouldn't be so quick to rush into legalization at this point in time, primarily due to the rise in human trafficking - especially in this country.

There seems to be a sense of apathy toward the consequences of prostitution that I feel deserve more attention.

It's like "ya, just legalize it, it'll make things better" - Well that's not necessarily the case - it's not that simple.

"Well then, it's a women's right - end of story! Damn the consequences, shit happens, that's just the way it is."

I could be wrong - I'm just saying.

I think we're better than that.


I THINK THAT WE COULD AGREE
We should be seeking a harmony between freedom, personal responsibility and the overall betterment of society.

We need to look at the studies and examine the research. We need to look at other countries and see what's working and what's not.

RIGHT NOW, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WORKING IN PLACES LIKE GERMANY

- sex trafficking is out of control.

- 50-65% of the prostitutes are migrant workers.

- many are unaware of their rights under the law.

- only a handful have legal contracts that would entitle them to benefits and additional protection that creates a better working environment.

- Many are reluctant to pay taxes, while the brothels and pimps still suck up the majority of profits.

...and all this was sold under the idea that legalization would just make everything better.


IF WE TAKE PLACES LIKE SWEDEN
We see a decrease in sex-trafficking since pimps and brothels have been criminalized and penalties against prostitutes have been minimized.

Would something like this help in the U.S? - I don't know.

What's most likely happening in Sweden is that prostitutes and traffickers are just moving further south in countries where there is more business for the prostitutes and less risk for the traffickers - like Germany.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

billvon

>Gun control advocates have already conceded that it could take generations before we
>would see any positive effects of an outright ban on guns . . .

Agreed. Gun ownership is an important right, and so it should be protected, even if that right carries with it high rates of crime and death when those rights are misused. Guns _should_ be regulated heavily to reduce the incidence of that misuse.

I'm not so sure heavy regulation of guns is as necessary as you might think.

The nearly 50% decline in gun related crime had less to do with regulation. The assault weapons ban has already be shown to have been ineffective in reducing gun violence. Neither can the decline be attributed to the nearly 50% increase in the amount of guns owned.

If there was just one contributing factor in that decline, I would say that is was the change in the cultural mindset of a generation and the better parenting that came along with that change.

billvon

A woman's right to do what she wants with her body is an important right, and should be protected, even if that carries with it the chance of misuse (i.e. human trafficking.) It _should_ be heavily regulated to reduce the incidence of that misuse.

That's so vague. You have to define what those regulations are - because again - the idea here is that those incidences of misuse have a tendency to increase with legalization even if regulations are put in place. In many cases women are unfamiliar with the regulations and don't take advantage of protections under the law.

Are you talking about having a system similar to Sweden?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

wmw999

We allow (and regulate) alcohol, which leads to many negative consequences as well.

One of the main arguments that we hear is that prohibition lead to more negative consequences. In the case of prostitution, places like Germany cast doubt on legal prostitution and it's ability to improve conditions as much as people think it does. There's also the data that suggest human trafficking inflows increase with legalization - not sure if I mentioned that already.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

Bolas

****** Sex, now that is dangerous!

What part of "increased human trafficking inflows" don't you understand?

Quote

Nevada is the only U.S. jurisdiction to allow some legal prostitution. Currently eight counties in Nevada have active brothels (these are all rural counties); as of June–July 2008 there were 28 legal brothels in Nevada.[23][24][25] Prostitution outside the licensed brothels is illegal throughout Nevada. Prostitution is illegal in the major metropolitan areas of Las Vegas, Reno, and Carson City, where most population lives; more than 90% of Nevada citizens live in a county where prostitution is illegal.

Prostitution in Rhode Island was outlawed in 2009. On November 3, governor Donald Carcieri signed into law a bill which makes the buying and selling of sexual services a crime.[12] Prostitution was legal in Rhode Island between 1980 and 2009 because there was no specific statute to define the act and outlaw it, although associated activities such as street solicitation, running a brothel and pimping were illegal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_States#Legal_status

So human trafficking is higher in the counties in Nevada where prostitution is legal then the counties where it is illegal?

Has human trafficking in Rhode Island gone down since 2009 or did it go up in the 80s?

Really, you're going to challenge a cross-sectional study of 100+ countries with a little mini bolas study citing a couple of wiki quotes about the status of prostitution in 2 states?

The study is talking about the scale effect and how the expansion of the market through an entire country outweighs the substitution effect. If one doesn't understand those concepts then it might be difficult to have a conversation about them.

I will say however that the brothels in Nevada are dying - and not just because of the shear sleaze and repulsiveness of it all, but because people are starting to turn to the convenience and discreetness of the internet - which introduces another dynamic of the conversation.

I think the internet could be used to pose a solution to the problem - but at the same time, it could be the vehicle that's been driving this unprecedented rise in human trafficking.

Bolas

As we've seen as marijuana has become more legalized, most of the arguments against doing so have been proven false.

Were those arguments founded on empirical data of actual research, or just someone's opinion?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[turtlespeed 212]

Coreeece

********* Sex, now that is dangerous!

What part of "increased human trafficking inflows" don't you understand?

Quote

Nevada is the only U.S. jurisdiction to allow some legal prostitution. Currently eight counties in Nevada have active brothels (these are all rural counties); as of June–July 2008 there were 28 legal brothels in Nevada.[23][24][25] Prostitution outside the licensed brothels is illegal throughout Nevada. Prostitution is illegal in the major metropolitan areas of Las Vegas, Reno, and Carson City, where most population lives; more than 90% of Nevada citizens live in a county where prostitution is illegal.

Prostitution in Rhode Island was outlawed in 2009. On November 3, governor Donald Carcieri signed into law a bill which makes the buying and selling of sexual services a crime.[12] Prostitution was legal in Rhode Island between 1980 and 2009 because there was no specific statute to define the act and outlaw it, although associated activities such as street solicitation, running a brothel and pimping were illegal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_States#Legal_status

So human trafficking is higher in the counties in Nevada where prostitution is legal then the counties where it is illegal?

Has human trafficking in Rhode Island gone down since 2009 or did it go up in the 80s?

Really, you're going to challenge a cross-sectional study of 100+ countries with a little mini bolas study citing a couple of wiki quotes about the status of prostitution in 2 states?

The study is talking about the scale effect and how the expansion of the market through an entire country outweighs the substitution effect. If one doesn't understand those concepts then it might be difficult to have a conversation about them.

I will say however that the brothels in Nevada are dying - and not just because of the shear sleaze and repulsiveness of it all, but because people are starting to turn to the convenience and discreetness of the internet - which introduces another dynamic of the conversation.

I think the internet could be used to pose a solution to the problem - but at the same time, it could be the vehicle that's been driving this unprecedented rise in human trafficking.

Bolas

As we've seen as marijuana has become more legalized, most of the arguments against doing so have been proven false.

Were those arguments founded on empirical data of actual research, or just someone's opinion?

You mean like the movie "refer madness"

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bolas 5]

turtlespeed

You mean like the movie "refer madness"

Hooker Madness

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[turtlespeed 212]

Bolas

***
You mean like the movie "refer madness"

Hooker Madness

TJ Hooker?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun