Obama's legacy

[brenthutch 388]

kallend

I see the S&P 500 closed at yet another record high today. Clearly the market is spooked by Trump's vision of distopia.

I think you replied to the wrong thread, we are documenting the impending failure of Obamacare.

[kallend 1,635]

brenthutch

***I see the S&P 500 closed at yet another record high today. Clearly the market is spooked by Trump's vision of distopia.

I think you replied to the wrong thread, we are documenting the impending failure of Obamacare.

I think you need to read the thread title.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

kallend

******I see the S&P 500 closed at yet another record high today. Clearly the market is spooked by Trump's vision of distopia.

I think you replied to the wrong thread, we are documenting the impending failure of Obamacare.

I think you need to read the thread title.

Padding the wallets of the 1%? Sure if you say so.

[Bolas 5]

brenthutch

***
Until we, as a country, quit with the "I want to live exactly as I please, eat as I please, sit on my butt as I please, and take a pill to fix it" lifestyle, it's not likely to get better.
Wendy P.

At least not until the costs associated with those behaviors are born by those engaged in them.

That is my biggest concern about socialized medicine: if the government becomes responsible for paying for health expenses for all, a person's "risky" behaviors become the government's liability and then can limit one's freedom.

You can't expect to maintain freedom if you forgo personal responsibility.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Bolas,

Quote

That is my biggest concern about socialized medicine: if the government becomes responsible for paying for health expenses for all, a person's "risky" behaviors become the government's liability and then can limit one's freedom.

I have given this some thought, also. However, I know of no country with single-payer/NHS in which there are rules that limit one's freedom.

I have known companies that fund/provide/cover health costs for employees in which this has been a factor. One company that I used to visit in Georgia would not hire any smokers. And, if any current employee(s), who were smokers, that did not go into a no-smoking plan, they would be dismissed.

Looks like the private sector is more of a problem than is the gov't.

Jerry Baumchen

[Bolas 5]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Bolas,

Quote

That is my biggest concern about socialized medicine: if the government becomes responsible for paying for health expenses for all, a person's "risky" behaviors become the government's liability and then can limit one's freedom.

I have given this some thought, also. However, I know of no country with single-payer/NHS in which there are rules that limit one's freedom.

I have known companies that fund/provide/cover health costs for employees in which this has been a factor. One company that I used to visit in Georgia would not hire any smokers. And, if any current employee(s), who were smokers, that did not go into a no-smoking plan, they would be dismissed.

Looks like the private sector is more of a problem than is the gov't.

Jerry Baumchen

if one does not like the choices a company makes, a person can choose to leave that company or not pursue employment with them.

If one's government were to impose such restrictions, one would have very few legal options.

Interesting you chose smoking as that would be an ideal place for a government to start restricting to "cut health costs."

Once the precedent was set...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[gowlerk 1,916]

My biggest concern with socialized medicine is very different, and based on what really happens. Namely, that when the government pays then they must somehow finance it. Which means taxes. People resist taxes. They would rather pay insurance than taxes, even if the taxes are less. It just feels better. So what ends up happening is that the health care system gets squeezed and is always short of cash to do the huge job.

I know. It's the opposite of what people think will happen.They think the system will just keep spending more and more. Well, it would if it could, but the health care system can't directly tax anyone. And the politicians want to be re-elected, so believe it or not the system starves.

So far I have seen no sign of the government enforcing healthy living habits on anyone.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[ryoder 1,391]

Bolas

if one does not like the choices a company makes, a person can choose to leave that company or not pursue employment with them.

If one's government were to impose such restrictions, one would have very few legal options.

Interesting you chose smoking as that would be an ideal place for a government to start restricting to "cut health costs."

Once the precedent was set...

How many recipients of Medicaid or Medicare have had their health benefits cut because they smoked?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jimjumper 25]

You haven't looked at the military. A lot of off duty habits are totally controlled. Smoking, drinking, drugs, obesity, physical fitness are all controlled items. it would only be a matter of enforcing it by taxation (or tax credits as an incentive) in the civilian sector.

[gowlerk 1,916]

Well, taxation is already being used to discourage smoking and drinking. Especially here in Canada. And of course drugs as well. But I see all that as social policy, not health policy.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

You haven't looked at the military. A lot of off duty habits are totally controlled. Smoking, drinking, drugs, obesity, physical fitness are all controlled items.

All of those items are directly related to the ability to do the job you signed up for. How could anyone possibly be in fighting shape while on duty, while being morbidly obese while off duty?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[jimjumper 25]

If it's a physical requirement to do your job then why are there different standards for men and women?

[SkyDekker 1,130]

jimjumper

If it's a physical requirement to do your job then why are there different standards for men and women?

Are you saying women are allowed to be obese but men are not? Or are you just bitter and comparing apples and oranges?

[jimjumper 25]

I'm saying that controlling obesity for health and subsequently cost reasons is the primary focus and not job performance. If that reasoning can be applied to military personnel how long do you think it would be before it would be implemented for civilians if/when general medical care is government provided?
As far as military personnel there are different body fat percentage standards for men and women. So yes, the level of body fat to be considered obese is different. The physical fitness performance standards are also different. The job should dictate the required physical ability and not the gender.

[jakee 1,257]

jimjumper

I'm saying that controlling obesity for health and subsequently cost reasons is the primary focus and not job performance. If that reasoning can be applied to military personnel how long do you think it would be before it would be implemented for civilians if/when general medical care is government provided?
As far as military personnel there are different body fat percentage standards for men and women. So yes, the level of body fat to be considered obese is different. The physical fitness performance standards are also different. The job should dictate the required physical ability and not the gender.

Men and women at a given fitness level will have a different percentage of body fat.

But really there you're just confusing a fitness indicator with a performance target, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,635]

jimjumper

I'm saying that controlling obesity for health and subsequently cost reasons is the primary focus and not job performance. If that reasoning can be applied to military personnel how long do you think it would be before it would be implemented for civilians if/when general medical care is government provided?

Instead of speculating, why not look at every other first world country, each and every one of which has introduced "general medical care", to see if it has been implemented in them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gowlerk 1,916]

Girls can soldier too. Get over it.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SkyDekker 1,130]

Quote

I'm saying that controlling obesity for health and subsequently cost reasons is the primary focus and not job performance. If that reasoning can be applied to military personnel how long do you think it would be before it would be implemented for civilians if/when general medical care is government provided?

Hasn't happened in any other civilized society.

You seem pretty uptight about women in the military.

[jimjumper 25]

Actually, I'm retired military and was in a rating that attempted to go 50% female due to our unique occupation. The reason it even ended up being discussed is because I pointed out that the U.S. Government has controlled military members behavior to reduce medical costs. It was attempted to argue that the purpose of that control was to ensure the ability of members to perform their duties. It's not. It's to reduce health care costs. If that type of control can be applied to military personnel it can also be applied to civilians when the cost of health care is borne by the government. It may not have happened specifically yet but I think I would prefer my health care to not be controlled by the government.

[ryoder 1,391]

jimjumper

Actually, I'm retired military and was in a rating that attempted to go 50% female due to our unique occupation. The reason it even ended up being discussed is because I pointed out that the U.S. Government has controlled military members behavior to reduce medical costs. It was attempted to argue that the purpose of that control was to ensure the ability of members to perform their duties. It's not. It's to reduce health care costs. If that type of control can be applied to military personnel it can also be applied to civilians when the cost of health care is borne by the government. It may not have happened specifically yet but I think I would prefer my health care to not be controlled by the government.

So I am going to repeat my question:
How many recipients of Medicaid or Medicare have had their health benefits cut because they smoked?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 622]

Mark it zero Donny.

[kallend 1,635]

jimjumper

Actually, I'm retired military
....

but I think I would prefer my health care to not be controlled by the government.

So you don't avail yourself of VA benefits at all, then?

And you still haven't told us which of the first world countries with government sponsored healthcare (which is all of them apart from the USA) have put in place the controls that scare you so much.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 388]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[gowlerk 1,916]

brenthutch

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Not sure what your point is. Everyone's health care is rationed. Everywhere in the world. There is no such thing as a bottomless pit of insurance money.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 388]

gowlerk

***http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

There is no such thing as a bottomless pit of insurance money.

That IS my point