Should Hillery Clinton release Wall Street speach transcripts

[billvon 2,478]

>What is rediculously hard? Showing up and doing the job you are being paid to
>do for 8 hours 5 days a week? The job you agreed to do?

No. Showing up and working 16 hours a day, while getting paid for 8, 7 days a week while being paid for 5 would qualify (to me) as ridiculously hard.

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>What is rediculously hard? Showing up and doing the job you are being paid to
>do for 8 hours 5 days a week? The job you agreed to do?

No. Showing up and working 16 hours a day, while getting paid for 8, 7 days a week while being paid for 5 would qualify (to me) as ridiculously hard.

Well, then - working rediculously hard seems to be working for me.

if it can work for me - It can work for everyone else that doesn't have a silver spoon in their mouth.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,478]

>if it can work for me - It can work for everyone else that doesn't have a silver
>spoon in their mouth.

I think it might be a mistake to assume that everyone has the same basic talents.

I once worked with a janitor at a county park. I was "assigned" to him for about three hours a day as he did his job. He had had several injuries on the job over the years he had been there, including an incident where he lost a finger while trying to change a toilet paper roll. My job was to make sure he didn't hurt himself again, since his injuries cost the county a lot of money.

This guy worked harder than most other people at that park. He was almost always drenched in sweat and he regularly worked overtime to complete some of the tougher tasks they assigned him, like sorting all the "leisure passes" in alphabetical order. He didn't have Down Syndrome - although most people who met him for the first time assumed he did.

But he was never going to be as successful as you no matter how hard he worked.

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>if it can work for me - It can work for everyone else that doesn't have a silver
>spoon in their mouth.

I think it might be a mistake to assume that everyone has the same basic talents.

I once worked with a janitor at a county park. I was "assigned" to him for about three hours a day as he did his job. He had had several injuries on the job over the years he had been there, including an incident where he lost a finger while trying to change a toilet paper roll. My job was to make sure he didn't hurt himself again, since his injuries cost the county a lot of money.

This guy worked harder than most other people at that park. He was almost always drenched in sweat and he regularly worked overtime to complete some of the tougher tasks they assigned him, like sorting all the "leisure passes" in alphabetical order. He didn't have Down Syndrome - although most people who met him for the first time assumed he did.

But he was never going to be as successful as you no matter how hard he worked.

And you believe he should be as wealth and earn an income just the same as yours.
Not a question. A statement.

That is what you believe.

I think think that belief, as possibly noble as it is, is unrealistic, even harmful to the rest of the world.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[tkhayes 154]

Quote

It is ALWAYS the choice of the individual to succeed or not.

patently false and almost delusional.

sickness
disease
family problems
accidents
loss of jobs
lawsuits
wrong accusations
people fucking you over

just some of the 100,000 reasons people might not succeed in the world or in life and mostly completely out of any of their control.

People 'choose' none of these things.

[gowlerk 1,956]

Quote

And you believe he should be as wealth and earn an income just the same as yours.
Not a question. A statement.

I don't know what billvon believes. But speaking for myself I don't think he deserves as much as you. But I do believe as a productive member of a wealthy society he deserves at least enough to live a dignified life by the standards of the community he lives in.

The world owes no one a living as you well know. In a poorer time someone like this would be lucky to survive. But our society becomes rich as a whole, not as the sum of individuals. Even as hard as you work, you are only able to succeed as much as you have because you are living in the midst of wealth.

The balance between the top and the bottom has become skewed. It is never and could never be equal. But we don't live in a winner take all, survival of the fittest world. We are humans, and we live in a society that is partly a collective.

It is commonly perceived that the rules have tilted the playing field too far toward the richest members. This is bad for us. It removes part of the incentive to work. And besides, revolutions get started when the imbalance goes too far. Especially in 2nd amendment countries.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

Quote

What is rediculously hard? Showing up and doing the job you are being paid to do for 8 hours 5 days a week? The job you agreed to do?

Not at all.

The problem is that there are many, many, many jobs where you can work yet still live in poverty. Just look at the many WalMart employees who have to rely on social programs to make ends meet.

Having to work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to have a living wage is not a normal existence. People should be able to work a job 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and live a regular, normal (lower) middle class life.

For many the American Dream is to be able to be a part of the working class. Not everybody wants to work 24 hours straight, nor should anybody be required to, to make ends meet.

For your daughter and her generation it is very unlikely she will do as well as your generation, or your parents generation. I have no idea how my children are going to afford real estate in an urban environment when they are older. There has been almost no real wage growth in the last couple of decades, yet expenses and costs have increased significantly.

The middle class isn't disappearing because everybody is now lazy.

[gowlerk 1,956]

Quote

The middle class isn't disappearing because everybody is now lazy.

Exactly.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[GoHuskers 0]

Quote

Billary Clinton ... is a criminal
Bernie Sanders ... is clueless
Donald Trump ... is a jackass
Ted Cruz ... is an asshole

And its a shock that more people don't vote.

[BartsDaddy 4]

SkyDekker

Quote

What is rediculously hard? Showing up and doing the job you are being paid to do for 8 hours 5 days a week? The job you agreed to do?

Not at all.

The problem is that there are many, many, many jobs where you can work yet still live in poverty. Just look at the many WalMart employees who have to rely on social programs to make ends meet.

Having to work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to have a living wage is not a normal existence. People should be able to work a job 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and live a regular, normal (lower) middle class life.

For many the American Dream is to be able to be a part of the working class. Not everybody wants to work 24 hours straight, nor should anybody be required to, to make ends meet.

For your daughter and her generation it is very unlikely she will do as well as your generation, or your parents generation. I have no idea how my children are going to afford real estate in an urban environment when they are older. There has been almost no real wage growth in the last couple of decades, yet expenses and costs have increased significantly.

The middle class isn't disappearing because everybody is now lazy.

Your sounding just like the people that are demanding higher wages for a no skilled job. I am doing all right now. But 30 years ago I had been working 2 full time jobs with mandatory overtime for 4 years to build my resume and wealth. Some days I was lucky to get two hours sleep.
People that want to get ahead will find a way. People that want it handed to them will whine. Nothing says you are entitled to a living wage working a minimum wage job 40 hours a week.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[Stumpy 256]

tkhayes

Quote

It is ALWAYS the choice of the individual to succeed or not.

patently false and almost delusional.

sickness
disease
family problems
accidents
loss of jobs
lawsuits
wrong accusations
people fucking you over

just some of the 100,000 reasons people might not succeed in the world or in life and mostly completely out of any of their control.

People 'choose' none of these things.

I don't think you meant to aim that at me. I agree with you.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[brenthutch 390]

tkhayes

Quote

It is ALWAYS the choice of the individual to succeed or not.

patently false and almost delusional.

sickness
disease
family problems
accidents
loss of jobs
lawsuits
wrong accusations
people fucking you over

just some of the 100,000 reasons people might not succeed in the world or in life and mostly completely out of any of their control.

People 'choose' none of these things.

It is called "LIFE" stuff happens, deal with it and move on. Crying about it serves no purpose.

[wmw999 2,178]

Will it change your vote if she does?

Nearly every politician panders to the people they speechify for. Remember Mitt Romney's famous "47%" line? That was a private speech, and he sure didn't plan to release it; it was leaked.

I wish they'd all be up-front and honest in all of their dealings. None of them are, and most of us aren't completely honest by all other people's evaluation all the time. Why? Because people interpret things differently; what's a major impact to one person is a minor blip to someone else. What someone thinks is significant says quite a bit about them, almost as much as what they think about that "significant" thing.

So I voted no. Because no one else releases their speech transcripts to private groups. Hating her doesn't make different rules apply.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tkhayes 154]

I agree, however the claim was that success depends on your 'choices'.

You can still have all this shit happen to you, deal with it and move on.... and be in poverty and despair, not success.

'dealing with it and moving on' is no guarantee of 'success'. And failing to succeed when you 'dealt with it' is not a 'choice' necessarily.

You might achieve happiness or even reasonable mediocrity, which has nothing to do with success, but to think that anyone and everyone can simply 'overcome' any and all obstacles in life is delusional - what I said earlier.

The evidence is not there today that everyone can succeed. 47M people getting food stamps at one time or another during the year while working a full-time job is not an indication that these people are somehow 'not dealing with it' it is an indication of a very damaged system that simply does not allow for success, or as many other have said throughout the posts - a shot at even a decent middle class lifestyle.

your argument indicates that 47M people - about 1/3 of the American workforce are simply lazy and not driven to succeed - equally delusional. If hard work = success, then every immigrant Mexican worker in FL would be a millionaire.

The world needs janitors too, and a janitor used to be able to afford life, even a meager one. Today, that is not possible.

Raise the fucking minimum wage and watch how quickly we get people off welfare, and spending more because they have more to spend. Yes, your burger will go up in price, and you will sell more of whatever shit you sell or whatever service you provide. GUARANTEED TO WORK - since it has in fact worked at every time in history.....

[turtlespeed 212]

tkhayes

I agree, however the claim was that success depends on your 'choices'.

You can still have all this shit happen to you, deal with it and move on.... and be in poverty and despair, not success.

'dealing with it and moving on' is no guarantee of 'success'. And failing to succeed when you 'dealt with it' is not a 'choice' necessarily.

You might achieve happiness or even reasonable mediocrity, which has nothing to do with success, but to think that anyone and everyone can simply 'overcome' any and all obstacles in life is delusional - what I said earlier.

The evidence is not there today that everyone can succeed. 47M people getting food stamps at one time or another during the year while working a full-time job is not an indication that these people are somehow 'not dealing with it' it is an indication of a very damaged system that simply does not allow for success, or as many other have said throughout the posts - a shot at even a decent middle class lifestyle.

your argument indicates that 47M people - about 1/3 of the American workforce are simply lazy and not driven to succeed - equally delusional. If hard work = success, then every immigrant Mexican worker in FL would be a millionaire.

The world needs janitors too, and a janitor used to be able to afford life, even a meager one. Today, that is not possible.

Raise the fucking minimum wage and watch how quickly we get people off welfare, and spending more because they have more to spend. Yes, your burger will go up in price, and you will sell more of whatever shit you sell or whatever service you provide. GUARANTEED TO WORK - since it has in fact worked at every time in history.....

Believing you can start making life fair is a great mistake - and the lack of reality shown in that type of thinking is damaging to the country.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[gowlerk 1,956]

Quote

Believing you can start making life fair is a great mistake - and the lack of reality shown in that type of thinking is damaging to the country.

Correct. But that does not mean we have to give up our social constructs. There is a balance between "every man for himself" which if we followed we would still be living in caves, or more likely be extinct. And "all for one, one for all" which as we all know, would also have lead us to no advancement at all.

The lines already exist, they are and have always been movable. Kings always control the most resources, but if the peons can't eat the kingdom will collapse.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 390]

tkhayes

Raise the fucking minimum wage and watch how quickly we get people off welfare, and spending more because they have more to spend. Yes, your burger will go up in price, and you will sell more of whatever shit you sell or whatever service you provide. GUARANTEED TO WORK - since it has in fact worked at every time in history.....

Wrong!
Here is how it works in the real world.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/7/26/1405826/-A-HIGH-MINIMUM-WAGE-IS-BAD-ECONOMICS
First, on the supply side. It draws supply.

Higher wages will draw idle labor into the labor market. Retirees, stay at home mothers and better off college students may stay out of a $7.25 per hour labor market. As the minimum wage goes up to $10, $12 and even $15, more and more will be attracted to compete for the jobs. They will bump out many of the lower income workers who were supposed to be helped.
Second, on the demand side. It causes job losses.

The more something costs; the less will be bought. This is an old law of economics. It doesn’t have to happen, but usually does.
Less workers will be hired or some will be laid off.
If labor goes up in price then machines may replace workers.
If a business is competing with lower cost foreign labor, the higher costs could put them out of business or move the business overseas.

Third, there is an inflation effect that is mostly regressive

There is an income ladder or an income pyramid. When the bottom rung is raised then the higher rungs will move up too. Once a boost in the minimum wage ripples up the ladder, the lower rungs will still be the lower rungs.

The gains in income will be nibbled away by the higher prices from all the higher wages on the income ladder. Much of this will be on necessities and thus regressive inflation, that is, it will hit lower incomes the hardest.

[normiss 644]

Yet you claim everyone has the same chance at success....aren't those opposing views?

[tkhayes 154]

that is a theory not borne by any historical fact or statistic. There are other opposing theories and there is a ton of real evidence from prior minimum wage increases that clearly demonstrate that NO wage increase ever resulted in economic hardship or job losses, or detriment to the economy.

Not ever.

Not even once

Nada, zip, zilch, zero. never in the history of the USA economy has a minimum wage increase EVER had a negative effect on the economy.

But feel free to post the data that demonstrates otherwise.

http://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster

[brenthutch 390]

You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts!

Seattle began the phase-in of the increase, raising the minimum wage to $11 in April. San Francisco raised its minimum wage to $12.25 in May. And the Los Angeles City Council passed a measure to raise the minimum wage for hotel workers to $15.37 per hour, which took effect in July.

Within the past year, about 2,500 restaurant jobs were lost in the San Francisco metro area, along with 2,200 hotel jobs in the LA area. Between January and June, Seattle lost about 1,300 restaurant jobs.

[tkhayes 154]

short term and minimal effect and you are cherry picking on single item out of a vast set of economic climate statistics.

You conveniently forget the overwhelming good things that have come out of it all.

And a lot of the data is further cherry picked - people lose jobs for a lot of reasons, hundreds of restaurants close every year anyway - are these the same people being counted in the 'job losses'?

Have you found any stats or published any stats about job gains? About welfare roles being reduced? About the overall rate of employment?

I stand by my statement. if 2500 people lose a job that paid $8/hour and 50,000 people gain $3/hour in pay, sorry but the net gain is good for the economy. but I cannot find any numbers of restaurant workers for any particular location.

So come back to me with something that covers the gamut of the economy if you want to debate it - there is NO evidence that 2500 workers losing their jobs is even an indication that it was caused by minimum wage hikes and even Faux News got called bullshit on their interpretation of it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/1/1425663/-Seattle-Raises-its-Minimum-Wage-Jobless-Rate-Drops-Fox-Scrambles-for-a-Ladder-to-Pick-Cherries

Actually, it is pretty easy to argue that when the minimum wage went up, people had opportunities to work in fields they would not have otherwise worked in because the wages were too low. Employment relatively stayed the same in Seattle, continues to decrease in San Francisco and Los Angeles.

So I guess these workers you reference are not capable of getting any other jobs? Because the stats indicate that they already have.

[gowlerk 1,956]

Quote

Within the past year, about 2,500 restaurant jobs were lost in the San Francisco metro area, along with 2,200 hotel jobs in the LA area. Between January and June, Seattle lost about 1,300 restaurant jobs.

Interesting, but you have posted no source. So I have to assume you either have none, or know that it is unreliable.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 390]

http://www.nfib.com/article/job-losses-from-minimum-wage-increases-worse-than-reported-70633/

[gowlerk 1,956]

Yup, as I suspected. Follow that link to a small business interest group site. Then follow their link to their source and you get a blog post on the American Enterprise Institute site. and an article full of mea culpas about how these numbers may or may not be correct, but we will interpret them this way.

Minimum wage laws are good for people.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

Yet you claim everyone has the same chance at success....aren't those opposing views?

I believe I said that life wasn't fair.

Some people have it easier than others. Some have to work harder.

My point is that if you want to work hard, and work smart, do what you have to do to get done what you need done to meet your goals, you can do it.

If you want to hang back, think that everyone else should do your work for you, and suck on the government tit, you won't succeed.

Life ain't fair. Tiring to make it fair is to be dishonest to yourself and to the rest of the world.

I notice no one commented on the packer, video guy, instructor examples I gave.

Is that because it just didn't support y'alls argument, or was it to close to the truth to be copied into the next response?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun