Seymour Hersh: The Killing of Osama bin Laden

[DanG 1]

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Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox.

Outstanding apples to apples comparison.

Edited to add: where's the eye rolling sarcasm emoji?

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 212]

DanG

Quote

Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox.

Outstanding apples to apples comparison.

Edited to add: where's the eye rolling sarcasm emoji?

Damn, I can't tell if that was sarcasm or not.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,434]

>I'll look at it this way. Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox.
>She isn't in US custody. What would be the American response?

We'd be annoyed.

Now, a more relevant response:
Pakistan operatives locate Abdul Rahman Yasin (one of the WTC bombers) and kill him in a firefight behind a Wal-Mart in Iowa. What would our response be?

[Andy9o8 0]

lawrocket

As much as one can look at exceptions, sending in helicopters with commandos into foreign territory is usually considered a breach of sovereignty.

Absolutely, if not sanctioned in advance, either expressly or by a pre-existing general protocol (even if informal) between the 2 nations' governments. That said, as I noted above, not every breach of sovereignty necessarily rises to the level of cassus belli.. Needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. Also depends on the specific relationship between the 2 particular nations. See below:

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I'll look at it this way. Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox. She isn't in US custody. What would be the American response?

Possibly more severe because she's a US citizen than if she was not. But because it's between the US and Italy, who are close allies, it would probably be no more than diplomatic. Maybe airdrop cases of Ragu on them, as an insult. A country not a belligerent but not a close ally, either - say, maybe... Thailand or some place like that? - a combination of diplomatic and economic sanctions, and maybe a show of force by warships and overflights off their coast for a couple weeks, and maybe a complaint to (or even claim through) an international body. Venezuela? Buzz their bases, with low-threshold rules of engagement by US pilots should the Venezuelan military even twitch in response. Iran? That could get to shootin'. North Korea? Bitch about it, then reward them with foreign aid. Russia or China? Serious military eyeball-to-eyeball for a while, the Pope and the UN doing their thing and Wolf Blitzer getting lots of airtime; plus some risky hair triggers until the dick-swinging contest settled down.

[Andy9o8 0]

billvon

>I'll look at it this way. Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox.
>She isn't in US custody. What would be the American response?

We'd be annoyed.

Now, a more relevant response:
Pakistan operatives locate Abdul Rahman Yasin (one of the WTC bombers) and kill him in a firefight behind a Wal-Mart in Iowa. What would our response be?

Some people just need killin'.

[lawrocket 3]

quade

***Am I the only one here who might be somewhat relieved?

By a conspiracy theory?

Seymour Hersch hasn't been right about a LOT of stuff since the early 70s. People cut him way too much slack, but I think his conspiracy theories do far more harm than good.


Now I only read Bergen's response. One thing I noticed was that he specifically mentioned Raymond Davis. Remember him? He's the spy who is led a couple of Pakistani counterintelligence guys that were on to him. The President and his administration put forth the narrative that he was a diplomat. And convinced the press to not publish the actual facts of what it knew.

Referencing a big cover up a scrap misinformation campaign does not increase my confidence. Bergen's style of defense is by asking g questions. Why would I? This is a classic way of not admitting something. Ask questions instead of provide responses.

Here's a possible why. Pakistan couldn't just turn bin Laden over. It would face revolt and repercussions for looking like shills for the great Satan. Letting the Amrikis come in without a fight fits the bill of American aggression and superiority (and Americans go fuck yeah over that) while Pakistan can say they had nothing to do with it and denounce American aggression.

I'm not saying it happened. But disinformation with relation to Pakistan is certainly seen with Raymond Davis. I tend to suspect that something that glorifies the US to the US and makes sure Pakistan. Doesn't catch hell from the Allah Akbars would be feasible.

I'll say it again. Bergen's defense cited Raymond Davis. Why would we cover it up when the Raymond Davis situation was going on? This is something that is fucking comical. He cited Raymond Davis to suggest no cover up or conspiBergen's

Bergen's defense on this just makes it look even worse.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andy9o8 0]

Wall Street Journal: 3 Reasons to Be Skeptical of Seymour Hersh’s Account of the Bin Laden Raid by Michael Kugelman.

[lawrocket 3]

Andy9o8

Wall Street Journal: 3 Reasons to Be Skeptical of Seymour Hersh’s Account of the Bin Laden Raid by Michael Kugelman.

I'm plenty skeptical of it. But I was pointing out that the defense of it that Quade put out there had the opposite effect. I think that the suggestion that the US and Pakistan cooperated is worthy of extreme doubt. Especially because of the Raymond Davis issue.

I simply find it odd. I'd actually feel better about the Administration if they were able to get Pakistani cooperation during that time. But I myself doubt it.

Don't fan the flames in defense. The article you posted is a lot more sensible. It doesn't sound like venting

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

Changed the title for you..

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AndyBoyd 0]

quade

And the last time Seymour Hersh was right about anything was . . . ?

Well, there was a time when he was a respected journalist. He broke the My Lai story:

http://www.pierretristam.com/Bobst/library/wf-200.htm

He wrote what seemed to be a credible book on the incident where the Russian military shot down a Korean airliner:

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20094683,00.html

I don't think he was the only one responsible for breaking the Abu Ghraib story, but he was deeply involved in reporting it:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/05/10/torture-at-abu-ghraib

Is he off target with this one? His story seems pretty far fetched, and I am not arguing he is right. I sure hope it didn't happen the way he said it did. But at the time the story broke, no one believed something like My Lai could happen, either. But it did.

[quade 3]

AndyBoyd

***And the last time Seymour Hersh was right about anything was . . . ?

Well, there was a time when he was a respected journalist. He broke the My Lai story.

Yes, but all of the other things you mentioned have been suspect. So, yes, while he did write a book on the Korean shoot down, I also know several people who have written books on various D.B. Cooper theories and at most only one could possibly be the correct story and more than likely none of them are.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

quade

And the last time Seymour Hersh was right about anything was . . . ?

Oh oh

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NBC: Sources Confirm Reporter's Exposé on bin Laden Raid!

Damn NBC
Such a righ wing rag!!!

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After Seymour Hersh claimed in a lengthy exposé that the Obama administration inaccurately took full credit for the killing of Osama bin Laden, more sources have come forward to confirm his account.

Two intelligence sources have told NBC News that the year before the U.S. raid that killed Osama bin Laden, a "walk in" asset from Pakistani intelligence told the CIA where bin Laden was hiding, while three sources say that the Pakistani government was aware of bin Laden's location all along.

Hersh, quoting a single, unnamed source in his article, said that the Pakistani government had an active role in approving and implementing the raid in Abbottabad, Pakistan, where bin Laden died.

The source also said that the CIA and United States learned about bin Laden's location after paying a former senior Pakistani intelligence officer a $25 million reward for the information.

guess he was right about this one huh......

Take your pick

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=NBC%3A+Sources+Confirm+Reporter's+Expos%C3%A9+on+bin+Laden+Raid&safe=active

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Anvilbrother 0]

I gonna stick with the first hand accounts from actual seals that wrote the books on the operation.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[quade 3]

Anvilbrother

I gonna stick with the first hand accounts from actual seals that wrote the books on the operation.

Honest to god, if it was noon and I pointed at the brightest object in the sky and called it the sun, Rush would call it the moon.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Guest]

Well put, with excellent legal reasoning and critical thinking.

There are holes in Hersh's story, not the least of which was source.

This reminds me of the whole Iraq WMD thing being based on phony intel. Looks like Hersh, in his zeal to pillory the administration based upon his perceived sense of justice, bit the same hook.

"Out here, due process is a bullet." Of course the Pakis weren't told, because they would have tipped off UBL and we'd still be chasing the bastard today. Fortunately, UBL now sleeps with the fishes, which is a far better fate than he deserved. Good riddance.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Anvilbrother 0]

Eclipse

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[quade 3]

Anvilbrother

Eclipse

So, yeah, maybe he gets lucky twice a year.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,434]

>Honest to god, if it was noon and I pointed at the brightest object in the sky and
>called it the sun, Rush would call it the moon.

"There's no consensus! You don't know if it's the Moon or the Sun."
"Stop twisting my words!"
"I never claimed it was the Moon."
"The word 'moon' has a lot of meanings. It's only loser libs who can't understand the other meanings."
"Yes, we all know how you like to lie."

[kallend 1,647]

billvon

>Honest to god, if it was noon and I pointed at the brightest object in the sky and
>called it the sun, Rush would call it the moon.

"There's no consensus! You don't know if it's the Moon or the Sun."
"Stop twisting my words!"
"I never claimed it was the Moon."
"The word 'moon' has a lot of meanings. It's only loser libs who can't understand the other meanings."
"Yes, we all know how you like to lie."

"It stopped being the Sun in 1998."
"Even if it is the Sun, skin cancer is good for us."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

your a good sport sometimes quade, but don't let anyone know I said it.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>Honest to god, if it was noon and I pointed at the brightest object in the sky and
>called it the sun, Rush would call it the moon.

"There's no consensus! You don't know if it's the Moon or the Sun."
"Stop twisting my words!"
"I never claimed it was the Moon."
"The word 'moon' has a lot of meanings. It's only loser libs who can't understand the other meanings."
"Yes, we all know how you like to lie."

OOooo
you guys are having fun today!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

quade wrote:
.

And the last time Seymour Hersh was right about anything was

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

quade

***I gonna stick with the first hand accounts from actual seals that wrote the books on the operation.

Honest to god, if it was noon and I pointed at the brightest object in the sky and called it the sun, Rush would call it the moon.[/quoteof

Of course, there would be the rare circumstance when he'd be correct.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1LRAFWbdZGY/Uqp3zZQCynI/AAAAAAAAITs/0oKZBpIqV3Y/s1600/winter+-+noon+moon.JPG

The moon at noon

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[headoverheels 291]

lawrocket

Of course, there would be the rare circumstance when he'd be correct.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1LRAFWbdZGY/Uqp3zZQCynI/AAAAAAAAITs/0oKZBpIqV3Y/s1600/winter+-+noon+moon.JPG

The moon at noon

Wow, not as much snow/ice there as usual. Must be melting for some reason.

[AndyBoyd 0]

quade

******And the last time Seymour Hersh was right about anything was . . . ?

Well, there was a time when he was a respected journalist. He broke the My Lai story.

Yes, but all of the other things you mentioned have been suspect. So, yes, while he did write a book on the Korean shoot down, I also know several people who have written books on various D.B. Cooper theories and at most only one could possibly be the correct story and more than likely none of them are.

I am aware that there is still some controversy over the KAL 007 incident. I read the book after it came out. The quick bit of research I did on the book before I made the recent post seemed to indicate that it was well-researched and credible. I suppose I could be wrong about that. As far as Abu Ghraib, I hope you're not arguing that nothing wrong happened there. It seems fairly obvious from the pictures and countless media reports that something went terribly wrong in that place.

I'm just trying to point out that Hersh has done some very good work in the past. You seemed to suggest that he was the equivalent of a reporter for the National Enquirer.