Islam...the religion of peace?

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

now i think women's right to wear whatever they want should be respected. i know lots of niqabis (who wear full face veil) and they just like super privacy that it provides. you like it-- do it. i think government should not be allowed to deny women's right to wear it, or not to wear it. its a personal choice.

Okay, so with that in mind, do you apply the same standard to Saudi Arabia or Iran? Think of a non-Muslim woman living in those countries. Do you think she should have the right to wear a miniskirt without government intrusion?

Quote

personally, its not for me, but I'm super laid back with anyone's choice, tattooed head to toe with pink mohawk -- cool beans, mini skirt -- your choice, niqab -- if you feel like it then do it.

Nice. However, some members of societies where people normally show their faces and don't hide their identities find the niqab or burqa offensive. In a way it represents a rejection of the freedom of that society, which is one of the reasons why a country like France outlaws such garb.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

masterblaster72

***

now i think women's right to wear whatever they want should be respected. i know lots of niqabis (who wear full face veil) and they just like super privacy that it provides. you like it-- do it. i think government should not be allowed to deny women's right to wear it, or not to wear it. its a personal choice.

Okay, so with that in mind, do you apply the same standard to Saudi Arabia or Iran? Think of a non-Muslim woman living in those countries. Do you think she should have the right to wear a miniskirt without government intrusion?

Quote

personally, its not for me, but I'm super laid back with anyone's choice, tattooed head to toe with pink mohawk -- cool beans, mini skirt -- your choice, niqab -- if you feel like it then do it.

Nice. However, some members of societies where people normally show their faces and don't hide their identities find the niqab or burqa offensive. In a way it represents a rejection of the freedom of that society, which is one of the reasons why a country like France outlaws such garb.

1. of course, SA and Iran have lots of weird laws that have no basis in Islam. but actually, foreigners can not cover their head in SA, if I'm not mistaken. but yeah, i hope you get my point.

2. thats just an assumption of politicians forced upon those women. how can you make someone forcefully free if those women's definition of freedom is to practice niqab/hijab? no one is forcing her to wear it, how is it a freedom to forbid her from doing something she was free to do? :) plus the % of niqabi women in France is minuscule. and those women will still wear their niqabs its just they will be alienated and denied social life and carrier possibilities which in my book is discrimination.


p.s. here a good read, European woman's view on the French ban, i fully agree with her http://mashable.com/2014/07/01/french-ban-veils-op-ed/

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Coreeece 2]

Suslique

My opinion is not formed by TV, I don't even have a TV, I intentionally ignore news as well, unless I hear something catching my attention and I research myself on the internet. My opinion re xenophobia and islamophobia particularly originates from social networks, forums

I've had several discussions with my future atheist brother-in-law...we get along pretty well and share common interests- primarily Backwoods Bastard and Cards Against Humanity.

We've had several conversations about religion, and sometimes it gets a bit passionate. In one particular discussion, there where several times where we both projected several stereotypes onto each other. He happened to call me out on it and asked where I got that idea? I told him that the majority of my arguments have been with atheists on the internet - to which he replied, "oh, well that's your problem..."

I offer to you the same advice....

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and via my friends and family living in States.

pffffft....well that's not being very open minded, is it?

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BTW u asked somewhere if there's a Jesus in Quran.

Actually No, I didn't

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Yes, we believe in all prophets and messengers and all books sent before Quran with the only difference is that we believe that they were heavily altered by people

Then no, you really don't believe them...much like the Jews that don't really believe the prophets in those books either.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

Suslique

There is an international hijab day, when women of all backgrounds and religions are wearing hijab as a sign of solidarity with those women who have to fight for their rights to wear hijab. Most find it empowering. Why? Because we stop being a sexualised object for men: in the street, at work, at universities, we are free of beauty cliches and weird beauty standards that are created by MEN.

I respect your practice...and if it is truly unto God, then I would never sway you otherwise:
"One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord."

However, it seems this Hijab is done unto man...it makes you feel empowered against mans standards. Sister, please understand...THAT is not freedom.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Suslique 0]

Coreeece

Sister, please understand...THAT is not freedom.

...says yet another MAN to me

brother, you should understand that women don't want any men to tell her how she should feel or what should she wear. You, Sarkozy, Khomeini, and bunch of Saudi clerics should mind their own clothes and business, with all my respect to all of you :)

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Amazon 7]

Suslique

***Sister, please understand...THAT is not freedom.

...says yet another MAN to me

brother, you should understand that women don't want any men to tell her how she should feel or what should she wear. You, Sarkozy, Khomeini, and bunch of Saudi clerics should mind their own clothes and business, with all my respect to all of you :)My limited experience in THE Kingdom while working with their Air Force officers is that their wives were very fashionable with western wear when in group settings with just other women... as vain as any with their look. Beyond the walls of their home life though... completely covered or suffer the consequences of their society and the men who made sure they were adhering to the proscribed dress code.

[normiss 622]

Were they using sticks then?

[winsor 186]

normiss

Were they using sticks then?

Smaller diameter than one's thumb is fine (the 'rule of thumb').

[Coreeece 2]

Suslique

***Sister, please understand...THAT is not freedom.

...says yet another MAN to me


Bulverism!

You may think that statement has some profound significance, but had not men moved beyond that type of mentality, women may have never been able to vote.

"There goes another woman, speaking again..."

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[billvon 2,400]

> but had not men moved beyond that type of mentality, women may have never
>been able to vote.

So women should be thankful that men allowed them to vote! Now as soon as we can get blacks to be thankful that we freed them . . .

[Amazon 7]

normiss

Were they using sticks then?

Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice

[Suslique 0]

billvon

> but had not men moved beyond that type of mentality, women may have never
>been able to vote.

So women should be thankful that men allowed them to vote! Now as soon as we can get blacks to be thankful that we freed them . . .

...after we make you all sandwiches :D

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[normiss 622]

Bing still sucks


NSFW, there are some beheadings in the results.

[turtlespeed 212]

Suslique

***> but had not men moved beyond that type of mentality, women may have never
>been able to vote.

So women should be thankful that men allowed them to vote! Now as soon as we can get blacks to be thankful that we freed them . . .

...after we make you all sandwiches :D

Just surprise me. Doesn't have to be anything fancy, and could you bring me a beer too, thanks, sweetie.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

1. of course, SA and Iran have lots of weird laws that have no basis in Islam. but actually, foreigners can not cover their head in SA, if I'm not mistaken. but yeah, i hope you get my point.

2. thats just an assumption of politicians forced upon those women. how can you make someone forcefully free if those women's definition of freedom is to practice niqab/hijab? no one is forcing her to wear it, how is it a freedom to forbid her from doing something she was free to do? :) plus the % of niqabi women in France is minuscule. and those women will still wear their niqabs its just they will be alienated and denied social life and carrier possibilities which in my book is discrimination.


p.s. here a good read, European woman's view on the French ban, i fully agree with her http://mashable.com/2014/07/01/french-ban-veils-op-ed/

To quote from your article:

Quote

The chief result of this ban will simply be that women who wear the veil will have fewer freedoms because they will be forced to stay at home.

Why would the women be forced to stay at home? If they do, I see very rigid religious beliefs as a possible problem -- not the laws of France.

How about this as an interpretation of France's law: the country wants all of its citizens to have a fair chance. Do you think someone who goes for a job interview in France (Muslim population - 5-10%) in a niqab will successfully compete against someone with the same qualifications as her, sans niqab?

Example: if you owned a French bakery, would you want someone who deals with customers showing her face or wearing a niqab? What do you think would be better for the success of your business in a place like France?

Perhaps in this context the purpose of the law becomes clearer to you, keeping in mind that France has a vastly different culture than countries that enforce Sharia law?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Suslique 0]

masterblaster72

***

1. of course, SA and Iran have lots of weird laws that have no basis in Islam. but actually, foreigners can not cover their head in SA, if I'm not mistaken. but yeah, i hope you get my point.

2. thats just an assumption of politicians forced upon those women. how can you make someone forcefully free if those women's definition of freedom is to practice niqab/hijab? no one is forcing her to wear it, how is it a freedom to forbid her from doing something she was free to do? :) plus the % of niqabi women in France is minuscule. and those women will still wear their niqabs its just they will be alienated and denied social life and carrier possibilities which in my book is discrimination.


p.s. here a good read, European woman's view on the French ban, i fully agree with her http://mashable.com/2014/07/01/french-ban-veils-op-ed/

To quote from your article:

Quote

The chief result of this ban will simply be that women who wear the veil will have fewer freedoms because they will be forced to stay at home.

Why would the women be forced to stay at home? If they do, I see very rigid religious beliefs as a possible problem -- not the laws of France.

How about this as an interpretation of France's law: the country wants all of its citizens to have a fair chance. Do you think someone who goes for a job interview in France (Muslim population - 5-10%) in a niqab will successfully compete against someone with the same qualifications as her, sans niqab?

Example: if you owned a French bakery, would you want someone who deals with customers showing her face or wearing a niqab? What do you think would be better for the success of your business in a place like France?

Perhaps in this context the purpose of the law becomes clearer to you, keeping in mind that France has a vastly different culture than countries that enforce Sharia law?

they won't be forced by religious law, they will be forced by circumstances that government of France creates for these women. some will take off their niqab but some won't, take it as a personal protest.

now Saudi Arabia is not calling itself a democratic country, cradle of democratic values that cherishes all sorts of freedom of its citizens, you know? they are what they are, a monarchy with their own culture and laws. France of the other hand is claiming all of the above but in fact is NO different from Saudi Arabia.

the only chance to create an equal opportunities for its citizens it making sure they are not discriminated against their choices of clothes, religion and so on. no the other way around. its not democracy.

France is proud of its democratic european culture, by definition its a "free society where no one is discriminated based on their faith or other lifestyle choices including sexual orientation, clothing etc". what we see it very different from those claims.

me? i used to buy coffee in a Starbucks in London with a niqabi cashier girl working there. to me personally that was the best example of democratic society. a hipsterish looking guy with awesome haircut making coffee and a niqabi cashier. :)

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[bigbearfng 9]

I could care less what folk wear or don't wear-but I have to draw the line at the full face covering. On that I completely agree with France's ban.
It's a basic safety issue.
Many banks here have signs stating no masks, hoodies or even sunglasses inside. Take a guess why?
If you want to get a driver's license you have to get your picture taken for ID of yourself. Take it off or don't get a license.
There is no discrimination with those examples.
If I went to a muslim country I certainly would expect to abide by their customs-so why not the reverse also?

[ibx 2]

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now Saudi Arabia is not calling itself a democratic country, cradle of democratic values that cherishes all sorts of freedom of its citizens, you know? they are what they are, a monarchy with their own culture and laws. France of the other hand is claiming all of the above but in fact is NO different from Saudi Arabia.

It was very interesting listening to you describe a different culture but now you've completely gone off the deep end.

SA and France are not even in slightest comparable. SA has executed 88 people since the beginning of the year for crimes ranging from apostasy to being gay to being a rape victim.

Just tell me the last time France stoned a woman that was raped or whipped man within inch of his life for writing a blog. Naah, but France is the same as Saudi Arabia because they want woman to integrate into the culture they chose to live in....

I hope you will someday come live the real world....

[Suslique 0]

bigbearfng

I could care less what folk wear or don't wear-but I have to draw the line at the full face covering. On that I completely agree with France's ban.
It's a basic safety issue.
Many banks here have signs stating no masks, hoodies or even sunglasses inside. Take a guess why?
If you want to get a driver's license you have to get your picture taken for ID of yourself. Take it off or don't get a license.
There is no discrimination with those examples.
If I went to a muslim country I certainly would expect to abide by their customs-so why not the reverse also?

They take it off for document pictures and when there is a safety requirement to do so (showing face for police officer and so on)

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Suslique 0]

ibx

Quote

now Saudi Arabia is not calling itself a democratic country, cradle of democratic values that cherishes all sorts of freedom of its citizens, you know? they are what they are, a monarchy with their own culture and laws. France of the other hand is claiming all of the above but in fact is NO different from Saudi Arabia.

It was very interesting listening to you describe a different culture but now you've completely gone off the deep end.

SA and France are not even in slightest comparable. SA has executed 88 people since the beginning of the year for crimes ranging from apostasy to being gay to being a rape victim.

Just tell me the last time France stoned a woman that was raped or whipped man within inch of his life for writing a blog. Naah, but France is the same as Saudi Arabia because they want woman to integrate into the culture they chose to live in....

I hope you will someday come live the real world....

Either you havent read all my responses on this topic or i wasnt clear enough.

I was referring to an issue of women's clothes. This is what we were discussing. The approach of SA and France is absolutely identical. Precisely its

Quote

they want woman to integrate into the culture they chose to live in..

I live in the world where men who sit in the government think they still can force women into clothing and even feeling certain way. Which to me is a stone age thinking no matter who that particular man is, Khomeini or Sarcozy. Leave women alone and let them decide for themselves.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[ibx 2]

Quote

Either you havent read all my responses on this topic or i wasnt clear enough.

I was referring to an issue of women's clothes. This is what we were discussing. The approach of SA and France is absolutely identical. Precisely its

It is absolutely not the same. SA forces woman to wear certain cloths in public. France only says certain clothes cannot be worn because they are detrimental to what we consider a free society.

Quote

I live in the world where men who sit in the government think they still can force women into clothing and even feeling certain way. Which to me is a stone age thinking no matter who that particular man is, Khomeini or Sarcozy. Leave women alone and let them decide for themselves.

The problem is these woman are not free to decide to wear certain clothes, they are pressured into it by their culture and they not free to leave that culture. The price for wanting to leave is often ones life. There are plenty of examples of honor killings of woman who decided to live a more western oriented lifestyle, but keep telling yourself they all do it out of free will... Hell, 2 days ago a girl was shot in the head for singing in casting show.

Wearing a hijab or a niqab diametrically opposes everything woman have reached for gender equality in the last 100 years and makes integration into western society impossible.

You yourself say you don't want men to give unwarranted attention, are you such a weak woman that you have to hide from men because they ogle you sometimes? The step to not being allowed to leave your own house without the company of a male family member is not far from that type of thinking....

[Suslique 0]

ibx

Quote

Either you havent read all my responses on this topic or i wasnt clear enough.

I was referring to an issue of women's clothes. This is what we were discussing. The approach of SA and France is absolutely identical. Precisely its

It is absolutely not the same. SA forces woman to wear certain cloths in public. France only says certain clothes cannot be worn because they are detrimental to what we consider a free society.

Quote

I live in the world where men who sit in the government think they still can force women into clothing and even feeling certain way. Which to me is a stone age thinking no matter who that particular man is, Khomeini or Sarcozy. Leave women alone and let them decide for themselves.

The problem is these woman are not free to decide to wear certain clothes, they are pressured into it by their culture and they not free to leave that culture. The price for wanting to leave is often ones life. There are plenty of examples of honor killings of woman who decided to live a more western oriented lifestyle, but keep telling yourself they all do it out of free will... Hell, 2 days ago a girl was shot in the head for singing in casting show.

Wearing a hijab or a niqab diametrically opposes everything woman have reached for gender equality in the last 100 years and makes integration into western society impossible.

You yourself say you don't want men to give unwarranted attention, are you such a weak woman that you have to hide from men because they ogle you sometimes? The step to not being allowed to leave your own house without the company of a male family member is not far from that type of thinking....

1. In my first post I said that it is ultimately pointless in throwing links and facts to each other showing all the dirty laundry of any country. Each country has their own fair share of sceletons. I don't care neither about SA or France for that matter. But the attitude of forcing women to wear or take off certain clothes is the same. In France its €200 euro fine, in SA its something else. Who cares? The fact is that they both discriminate women's rights to wear whatever they want.

[Quote]Wearing a hijab or a niqab diametrically opposes everything woman have reached for gender equality in the last 100 years and makes integration into western society impossible.

Precisely how?:) that's ur personal thoughts that don't reflect a reality I wear hijab and I feel great in European society. Integration doesn't mean losing all ur identity, religion, etc. You can integrate into society no matter what clothes you wear. I studied and I'm working and enjoying my life with a hijab on. Imagine that:)

I wear hijab because I believe in God's words. And yes I enjoy the fact that no one is ogling me. Id wear it even if it wasnt so because of the reason stated above. Weak? I think I'm pretty strong for doing what I'm doing. Yet again you are a man who is judging my own personal choice of a clothes. You see its an never ending story. How many men on this topic wrote "women should decide themselves what to wear and its no mans business"? Apparently it is very difficult for a man to accept the fact that some women CHOOSE to wear modest clothes.

Edited because I'm sleep deprived and spaced out today, spelling, grammar etc

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[ibx 2]

Quote

1. In my first post I said that it is ultimately pointless in throwing links and facts to each other showing all the dirty laundry of any country. Each country has their own fair share of sceletons. I don't care neither about SA or France for that matter. But the attitude of forcing women to wear or take off certain clothes is the same. In France its €200 euro fine, in SA its something else. Who cares? The fact is that they both discriminate women's rights to wear whatever they want.

The fact that a niqab is simply incompatible with western societal standards and I simply do not believe that a woman "wants" to wear a niqab, she is forced to do so by her surrounding culture and she is not free to leave that culture, that's why the government steps in to try and ensure her freedom from a oppressive culture and family environment. The government wants woman to integrate into the society they chose to live in which is again impossible by hiding your face.

Quote

Precisely how?:) that's ur personal thoughts that don't reflect a reality I wear hijab and I feel great in European society. Integration doesn't mean losing all ur identity, religion, etc. You can integrate into society no matter what clothes you wear. I studied and I'm working and enjoying my life with a hijab on. Imagine that:)

Precisely in the way that woman have fought to wear non modest clothes without the fear of oppression, being fondeld or raped. I'm sorry, you cannot integrate into western society by wearing a niqab, just as you can't integrate into Saudi Arabian culture while wearing a bikini. A hijab is something else, from a western standpoint it is still a sign of oppression by a male dominated society and it is very visible sign of divisiveness.

Quote

I wear hijab because I believe in God's words.

Please show me the exact Sure where God stated you must wear a Hijab. I'm not talking about some Hadith or another mufti interpretation that says wearing a Hijab is a sign of modesty. If it's modesty you want, you need to wear a full niqab.

Quote

And yes I enjoy the fact that no one is ogling me. Id wear it even if it wasnt so because of the reason stated above. Weak? I think I'm pretty strong for doing what I'm doing.

Yeah, you're really a strong woman for hiding your hair from men in one the most tolerant societies on earth.

Quote

Yet again you are a man who is judging my own personal choice of a clothes.

Yes I am judging you through eyes of my own culture, and I believe I have every right to do so.

Quote

You see its an never ending story. How many men on this topic wrote "women should decide themselves what to wear and its no mans business"? (I only see one:) )

You see, wearing a niqab or a hijab is in the eyes of my culture not a woman's choice but something forced upon them by their culture. A culture which often has a death penalty of leaving it. Why are you ignoring that argument? It's not directly about the Hijab but what it represents.

Quote

Apparently it is very difficult for a man to accept the fact that some women CHOOSE to wear modest clothes.

It's completely fine for a woman to wear modest clothes, as long she does this on her own volition. The culture that brought about the hijab and the niqab are completely male dominated and woman are oppressed in these cultures like no other, they are killed by their own family for trying to leave...
The hijab and esp. the niqab are inherent signs of this oppressive male dominated culture, you wearing them and saying you do this proudly simply states that you believe in stone age gender roles.

[Stumpy 256]

Suslique - just wanted to say thanks for your posts on this forum. Its good to see the lies that some of the other posters continue to spout called out by someone who actually knows about this stuff.
(Plus, its interesting!)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Suslique 0]

ibx

Quote

1. In my first post I said that it is ultimately pointless in throwing links and facts to each other showing all the dirty laundry of any country. Each country has their own fair share of sceletons. I don't care neither about SA or France for that matter. But the attitude of forcing women to wear or take off certain clothes is the same. In France its €200 euro fine, in SA its something else. Who cares? The fact is that they both discriminate women's rights to wear whatever they want.

The fact that a niqab is simply incompatible with western societal standards and I simply do not believe that a woman "wants" to wear a niqab, she is forced to do so by her surrounding culture and she is not free to leave that culture, that's why the government steps in to try and ensure her freedom from a oppressive culture and family environment. The government wants woman to integrate into the society they chose to live in which is again impossible by hiding your face.

Quote

Precisely how?:) that's ur personal thoughts that don't reflect a reality I wear hijab and I feel great in European society. Integration doesn't mean losing all ur identity, religion, etc. You can integrate into society no matter what clothes you wear. I studied and I'm working and enjoying my life with a hijab on. Imagine that:)

Precisely in the way that woman have fought to wear non modest clothes without the fear of oppression, being fondeld or raped. I'm sorry, you cannot integrate into western society by wearing a niqab, just as you can't integrate into Saudi Arabian culture while wearing a bikini. A hijab is something else, from a western standpoint it is still a sign of oppression by a male dominated society and it is very visible sign of divisiveness.

Quote

I wear hijab because I believe in God's words.

Please show me the exact Sure where God stated you must wear a Hijab. I'm not talking about some Hadith or another mufti interpretation that says wearing a Hijab is a sign of modesty. If it's modesty you want, you need to wear a full niqab.

Quote

And yes I enjoy the fact that no one is ogling me. Id wear it even if it wasnt so because of the reason stated above. Weak? I think I'm pretty strong for doing what I'm doing.

Yeah, you're really a strong woman for hiding your hair from men in one the most tolerant societies on earth.

Quote

Yet again you are a man who is judging my own personal choice of a clothes.

Yes I am judging you through eyes of my own culture, and I believe I have every right to do so.

Quote

You see its an never ending story. How many men on this topic wrote "women should decide themselves what to wear and its no mans business"? (I only see one:) )

You see, wearing a niqab or a hijab is in the eyes of my culture not a woman's choice but something forced upon them by their culture. A culture which often has a death penalty of leaving it. Why are you ignoring that argument? It's not directly about the Hijab but what it represents.

Quote

Apparently it is very difficult for a man to accept the fact that some women CHOOSE to wear modest clothes.

It's completely fine for a woman to wear modest clothes, as long she does this on her own volition. The culture that brought about the hijab and the niqab are completely male dominated and woman are oppressed in these cultures like no other, they are killed by their own family for trying to leave...
The hijab and esp. the niqab are inherent signs of this oppressive male dominated culture, you wearing them and saying you do this proudly simply states that you believe in stone age gender roles.

now you see i do enjoy our conversation with masterblaster72 because he asked valid questions that are interesting to him and i try my best by answering them.

but what you are writing is not a conversation, its just a bunch of baseless accusations and assumptions that you made by ignoring my previous replies and you somehow expect me to put myself in a defensive position and quote and answer all of that. i don't feel like doing that, sorry.

Stumpy

cheers :)

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones