LAPD officers shoot homeless man in struggle over officer's gun, officials say

[airdvr 197]

LAPD officers shoot homeless man in struggle over officer's gun, officials say
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/02/video-purportedly-shows-police-officers-shooting-homeless-man-in-downtown-los/

Common sense says there are a lot of things 5 trained LEOs could have done before ventilating a homeless man.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Maybe, maybe not.

If he had managed to get the gun away from one of them, it could have gotten really ugly. How many would have been hit if he had emptied out a service weapon on a crowded street? (guessing it was a Glock or similar in 40 cal - probably 12-15 shots)

It reads like they tried to hit him with a stun gun of some sort and it didn't work (for whatever reason).

If he was going for one of the cop's guns and was reasonably close to getting it, then they may well have been justified.

Not enough info in the story to really judge.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[airdvr 197]

I get that...but 4 guys can't corral one homeless guy?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Crazy people can be "crazy strong."

And it's not the question of "Can 4 cops corral one guy?" as much as the question "Can one crazy guy get a gun from one of four cops?" I'm pretty sure they could have wrestled him down if they had enough time. His going for a gun changed the dynamic of the situation.

Maybe the cops should have left their guns in their cars when they went to get the guy (not totally serious, but not totally kidding either).

There's a reason cops leave their guns behind, locked up, when they go into the 'lockup' areas of jails and mental institutions.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 0]

wolfriverjoe

Crazy people can be "crazy strong."

And it's not the question of "Can 4 cops corral one guy?" as much as the question "Can one crazy guy get a gun from one of four cops?" I'm pretty sure they could have wrestled him down if they had enough time. His going for a gun changed the dynamic of the situation.

Maybe the cops should have left their guns in their cars when they went to get the guy (not totally serious, but not totally kidding either).

There's a reason cops leave their guns behind, locked up, when they go into the 'lockup' areas of jails and mental institutions.

I have been in many courthouses where police officers (there to testify) and uniformed bailiffs (working the courtroom) routinely have their service weapons in their holsters in courtrooms while in-custody criminal defendants, some who are seriously dangerous dudes, are in the room just a few feet away from them. Same goes for courtrooms where domestic relations cases are being heard (where, believe me, there's a huge potential for violence between attendees). Gives me the willies every time.

[kallend 1,623]

wolfriverjoe

Crazy people can be "crazy strong."

And it's not the question of "Can 4 cops corral one guy?" as much as the question "Can one crazy guy get a gun from one of four cops?" I'm pretty sure they could have wrestled him down if they had enough time. His going for a gun changed the dynamic of the situation.

Maybe the cops should have left their guns in their cars when they went to get the guy (not totally serious, but not totally kidding either).

There's a reason cops leave their guns behind, locked up, when they go into the 'lockup' areas of jails and mental institutions.

But, but.... the NRA would have us believe that carrying is a complete solution to the risks of living in the USA.

Now you're telling us that even trained LEOs can have their guns used against them. Oh the humanity.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

kallend

***Crazy people can be "crazy strong."

And it's not the question of "Can 4 cops corral one guy?" as much as the question "Can one crazy guy get a gun from one of four cops?" I'm pretty sure they could have wrestled him down if they had enough time. His going for a gun changed the dynamic of the situation.

Maybe the cops should have left their guns in their cars when they went to get the guy (not totally serious, but not totally kidding either).

There's a reason cops leave their guns behind, locked up, when they go into the 'lockup' areas of jails and mental institutions.

But, but.... the NRA would have us believe that carrying is a complete solution to the risks of living in the USA.

Now you're telling us that even trained LEOs can have their guns used against them. Oh the humanity.

Indeed. But here is another circumstance where trained LEOs blasted some dude point blank. Because they may have capped the guy who was trying to take it before he could.

Maybe somebody can find some stats about the number of police who get shot versus number of people police shoot. It might be a good indicator of how things are going.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

kallend

But, but.... the NRA would have us believe that carrying is a complete solution to the risks of living in the USA.

Now you're telling us that even trained LEOs can have their guns used against them. Oh the humanity.

Care to post a link or quote about that, Professor?

Not the "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" quote, but something that says a gun is the answer to every situation?

The NRA just advocates for the right to own, carry and use firearms.

Everyone that I know that knows guns (including cops, instructors and lawyers) says quite clearly that guns have very limited uses.

Primarily when facing that quoted "Bad guy with a gun."

And that one should very carefully consider the totality of the circumstances before deciding to use or even just carry a gun.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SkyDekker 1,123]

Andy9o8

***Crazy people can be "crazy strong."

And it's not the question of "Can 4 cops corral one guy?" as much as the question "Can one crazy guy get a gun from one of four cops?" I'm pretty sure they could have wrestled him down if they had enough time. His going for a gun changed the dynamic of the situation.

Maybe the cops should have left their guns in their cars when they went to get the guy (not totally serious, but not totally kidding either).

There's a reason cops leave their guns behind, locked up, when they go into the 'lockup' areas of jails and mental institutions.

I have been in many courthouses where police officers (there to testify) and uniformed bailiffs (working the courtroom) routinely have their service weapons in their holsters in courtrooms while in-custody criminal defendants, some who are seriously dangerous dudes, are in the room just a few feet away from them. Same goes for courtrooms where domestic relations cases are being heard (where, believe me, there's a huge potential for violence between attendees). Gives me the willies every time.

When I worked the courts in The Hague in the early 90s both police officers and private security worked the courts unarmed for that exact reason.

[ryoder 1,384]

There are several types of holsters designed for LEO use that are designed to prevent the removal of the gun unless a certain method is used to release it. I've never examined one.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[D22369 0]

the type III retention holster has a lever you push with your trigger finger which as you slide the weapon out places your finger above the trigger at the bottom of the slide above the trigger - which is where it should be until your on target and ready to fire. I really like the Blackhawk design.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Anvilbrother 0]

don't they keep the "seriously bad dudes" in handcufs? I front of them at least, or attached to the table?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

ryoder

There are several types of holsters designed for LEO use that are designed to prevent the removal of the gun unless a certain method is used to release it. I've never examined one.

There are a bunch of them. Most have some sort of release that needs to be pushed to release the pistol. A couple have multiple releases.
With a bit of practice, the "release" actions become part of the normal "drawstroke." The releases are not hard to operate, you just have to know where they are.

The problem occurs when the adversary knows about them too.

I volunteer as a range officer at my local shooting range. I'm not a big fan of civilian open carry, for a variety of reasons.
I had a guy who was a very vocal proponent of it, and he had one of the Blackhawk models.
He was certain that it was ideal for open carry because it was impossible for someone else to take it out (or so he thought).

He wasn't real happy with me when I came up right behind him and stood there for a few seconds (he wasn't paying attention to me), and then reached up and pulled the gun out of his holster.
The easiest way is to get right behind them and use the same hand that they would, in the same orientation.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Anvilbrother 0]

The local thug does not know that a certain level III holster requires an inside button release to rotate the hood down, and that the weapon must be pressed momentarily down then rocked forward then up to get it out of the holster. By the time they figure out the hood you should have both hands on the backstrap pressing back and twisting away from them. You had the inside scoop on a clueless person. Also who tries to take someone's weapon like you did? That's a good way to get a black eye or shot.

I speaking of pointing things out to people wearing pistols, more than once I have pointed out to state troopers who were working wrecks that we were on that their glocks did not have a magazine in it. Seems that the way they arrange their gun belts were allowing the release to be pressed leaving the mag between the seats of their unit. They usually turn white in the face when I point it out.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[ryoder 1,384]

I just recalled something about the Boston bombers not being able to get the gun of the cop they killed. I was wondering at the time if he had one of these holsters. Apparently, he did:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-boston-suspects-killed-mit-officer-2013-4

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[turtlespeed 212]

D22369

the type III retention holster has a lever you push with your trigger finger which as you slide the weapon out places your finger above the trigger at the bottom of the slide above the trigger - which is where it should be until your on target and ready to fire. I really like the Blackhawk design.

Roy

Mine has a finger release with a needed twist pressure in a certain direction.

It isn't supposed to . . . exactly . . . and I am sure as I break it in, it will become looser.
But right now, My fobus holster works great for me.

I have about 500 draw practices for it - but want 500 more

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jclalor 12]

airdvr

LAPD officers shoot homeless man in struggle over officer's gun, officials say
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/02/video-purportedly-shows-police-officers-shooting-homeless-man-in-downtown-los/

Common sense says there are a lot of things 5 trained LEOs could have done before ventilating a homeless man.

When you start fighting police and wildly grabbing at their weapons, all bets are off. New surveillance video shows the deceased beating someone minutes before being shot.

And the stupid ass that picks up the club, she should have got her ass stomped.

[D22369 0]

wolfriverjoe

***There are several types of holsters designed for LEO use that are designed to prevent the removal of the gun unless a certain method is used to release it. I've never examined one.

There are a bunch of them. Most have some sort of release that needs to be pushed to release the pistol. A couple have multiple releases.
With a bit of practice, the "release" actions become part of the normal "drawstroke." The releases are not hard to operate, you just have to know where they are.

The problem occurs when the adversary knows about them too.

I volunteer as a range officer at my local shooting range. I'm not a big fan of civilian open carry, for a variety of reasons.
I had a guy who was a very vocal proponent of it, and he had one of the Blackhawk models.
He was certain that it was ideal for open carry because it was impossible for someone else to take it out (or so he thought).

He wasn't real happy with me when I came up right behind him and stood there for a few seconds (he wasn't paying attention to me), and then reached up and pulled the gun out of his holster.
The easiest way is to get right behind them and use the same hand that they would, in the same orientation.


hah, I bet he wasn't happy at all, the Blackhawk I like is a very simple system and provides a single action to activate the release - it gives some security, far more than the open top kydex that is so popular these days but can be defeated by someone doing exactly what you did - In an active struggle for the firearm it would make it much more difficult for another to take except when they are part ninja and sneak up on ya... (looking at you!)
I conceal carry to add another level of firearm security - they cant sneak up and take what they don't know I have.
I have to open carry when I take my son to Oregon as they don't have reciprocity with Washington but I am just there to drop off and pick up my son, I stay with my car with no need to enter any establishment - also I really don't like alarming anyone even when open carry is my legal right.

I am enrolled for the Oregon ccw course on the 18th so soon I wont have to open carry at all and am really happy about it

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[mpohl 1]

Bingo.

If five guys can't keep one guy under control, they are grossly undertrained or incompetent. Or both.

Or maybe they were just looking for a kill that day. If recent history is any indication, there will be no repercussions.

These days, all US citizens are free game to law enforcement. Shoot an unarmed 12-year old kid. No problem. Asphyxiate a street vendor. No problem. Get called to a domestic violence situation: first shoot dog, then when owner gets upset, kill him, too.

And the list goes on, and on, and on...

airdvr

I get that...but 4 guys can't corral one homeless guy?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Ever wrestled a guy on the drug PCP? They don't feel pain, and are super resilient. Two officers got into a fight here in my city with a guy on pcp a long time ago. He killed the female officer, and then was shot many times in the vital organs by the other officer until he ran out of ammo in his revolver. The guy did not stop, he beat the cop with a tire iron while he huddled in the corner reloading. The cop was finally able to realod and continue shooting him until he finally hit him in the head and killed the suspect.

You have extreme tunnel vision and talk out of your ass about things you do not know.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Stumpy 256]

Anvilbrother

Ever wrestled a guy on the drug PCP?

So the guy was doing PCP? My my your crystal ball is effective.

Quote

You have extreme tunnel vision and talk out of your ass about things you do not know.

It's never stopped you either.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[ShotterMG 0]

"I speaking of pointing things out to people wearing pistols, more than once I have pointed out to state troopers who were working wrecks that we were on that their glocks did not have a magazine in it."

Excuse me, did you say you are/were a cop? Isn't there some minimum level of literacy required to be a police officer? Aren't you supposed to have an IQ above 80 or something? Did you cheat on your tests or does this explain a large part of the problem? Obviously this is a rhetorical question. I know you are slow. That's ok and everything, just maybe not for people who carry guns.

[Anvilbrother 0]

What's yo're fucking point, it were typed on a phone. I don't give a flying shit if it's corrrrect, or half jacked up it gets my point akross. Want to grade papers....go be a teacher.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Anvilbrother 0]

He stated that if 5 people can't handle 1 guy they are incompetent or undertrained. I am well within my right to throw the third option of a person under drugs such as pcp which would argue against his statement because it happens. I don't need a crystal ball to know that's an option, because I have been formally trained on it.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Stumpy 256]

Anvilbrother

He stated that if 5 people can't handle 1 guy they are incompetent or undertrained. I am well within my right to throw the third option of a person under drugs such as pcp which would argue against his statement because it happens. I don't need a crystal ball to know that's an option, because I have been formally trained on it.

ZERO evidence that is the case here. His point stands.

Never try to eat more than you can lift