Most influential war in US history

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I know this is a global website, but it is dominated by US people and well Canada, USA, Britain and France all share a common history. So I am just curious what people may think. Which one of these wars was the most influential war on US culture? Which war caused more change to the US as a nation? There are many other wars which were omitted from the list (like the War of 1812 as an example), so I have included "Other" as an option if someone thinks the list above omitted a war they felt equaled some of the wars mention in the poll. Most of these wars had a major impact on the US, but which one do you think had the most impact?

It's a tough choice as arguments could be made about a number of these wars as being the most influential. For me I have to start at the beginning. For me our modern world as we know it might not be the same if history did not happen the way it did. What if the "7 Years War" also known as the "French Indian War" never occurred? What would North America and for the matter the rest of the world look like today if all of Canada was still controlled by the French and/or the Indian people were never driven from their lands. I am sure eventually the Colonials would have gotten sick of Great Britain and rebelled like they did, or would they have rebelled? Without the "7 Year War" Britain might not have needed to raise taxes like they did to pay for the debts the war incurred. Perhaps the Colonials would have learned to like Britain and instead we would all be driving on the left side of the road. Perhaps instead of driving on the left side of the road, we would all instead be speaking French? Napoleon might have been able to squish the English had he had access to the resources of North America (though Britain's naval superiority may never have allowed this). Perhaps the battle of Waterloo might never had happened? Perhaps the little corporal would have gone on to dominate the world. Of course Remi would probably approve of all of us being French, but what about the rest of you? Etes-vous heureux vous n'etes pas Français?

So what war do you think made the biggest impact on US culture?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 3]

Quote

So what war do you think made the biggest impact on US culture?

Highly subjective question is highly subjective, but . . .

I'm going with Civil.

I think it's maybe arguable the US would essentially still be the same country in 2014 if it had continued under British rule. Look at Canada or Australia, the basic citizens' lifestyles of both could be easily mistaken US.

However, ditching slavery was pretty damn major.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

quade

Quote

So what war do you think made the biggest impact on US culture?

Highly subjective question is highly subjective, but . . .

I'm going with Civil.

I think it's maybe arguable the US would essentially still be the same country in 2014 if it had continued under British rule. Look at Canada or Australia, the citizens' lifestyles of both could be easily mistaken US.

However, ditching slavery was pretty damn major.

Interesting. I voted for the Civil War too, and when I voted, the page refreshed and Quade's comment popped up.

The thing is, the Civil War was about more than slavery.

Slavery was the primary cause. And many of the subsidiary causes had direct links to slavery.

And it had a lot of results other than the end of slavery, although the end of slavery was the most significant.

State's Rights and the serious diminishing of the 10th amendment is probably top of the "other than slavery" cause and result. (although the primary "state's right" at issue was slavery).

And the Civil War had some of the most significant advances in military technology.
All wars end up accelerating that, but the Civil War saw the change from muzzle-loaders to self-contained cartridge arms, the introduction of repeating arms (Henry & Spencer rifles) large scale use of repeating handguns (Colt & Remington revolvers), and the introduction of full automatic (technically, the Gatling gun wasn't "full auto", but it's most definitely "rapid fire").

It also saw the first use (in the US) of "electronic communication" (telegraph), aerial surveillance (observer balloons, often equipped with telegraph), and mechanized transport (trains).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Really interesting question!

I would say that the War of 1812 is under-appreciated in terms of its long-term consequences: it largely established the US/Canada border, secured the Ohio Valley/Midwest and the Oregon coast as US territory, and ended British support of the Native tribes. From a Native American perspective the war was a disaster, leading eventually to such disasters as the Trail of Tears. On the other hand it ended British expansionist hopes in North America, and (in the eyes of the European powers) legitimized the US as a "real" country.

On another hand, WWII spawned the military-industrial complex that dominates the US economy to this day, and led to the rise of the US as a global superpower. All the various entanglements that the US has become ensnared in as the "worlds police", initially against communism and later many other issues, and the subsequent attention from terrorist groups followed from that. Not to be forgotten is the US role as defender of Israel, the creation of which also has roots in WWII, which is also closely tied to the enmity of many Islamic terrorist groups. Of course, the conflict with communism and later the "War on Terrorism" greatly fueled the development of the surveillance society and Patriot Act erosion of civil liberties.

In terms of impact on today's US economy and culture, I'd say I'd have to put WWII first. But, I need to think more about the Civil War; that one is still echoing around the country in certain ways.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

That is why I said it was a difficult choice.

Without a doubt the US Civil War was a game changer and who knows what would have happened had Lincoln not been assassinated. But it is ironic that during the reconstruction years when a lot of blacks migrated north, all of a sudden the white people living in the Union states had to deal with the realities of all these free black people living among them. The blacks weren't re-enslaved, but the whites in the north weren't very receptive towards the freedoms the blacks were promised. It wasn't for almost an entire century before the blacks gained the rights we know of today.

I'd say the French Revolution had just as big if not a bigger effect on the common person when it started the end of the feudal system. But the French Revolution itself was a cluster fuck. It allowed a commoner Napoleon to rise to power, but then the little corporal then turned himself into Emperor. In a little over 10 years the French went from one Monarchy dictator to another dictator. Napoleon believed in equality, but he certainly did not believe in Liberty.

I am still of the opinion that the 7 Year War was a huge game changer for the world and it all started as a small localized squirmish. If the 7 Year War had never occurred, would the French dominate North America? The English Colonists had superior numbers to the French, but the Colonialist were confined to a much smaller area and French had the Indians as their allies. If the French had not mismanaged their Indian alliance, I doubt the English ever would have been able to defeat the French, there would not have been a Revolutionary War, no Civil War. The Great War as well as the Second World War would have had a completely different dynamic.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Ok, now you are starting with the "What If?" stuff.
Which is a rather different discussion.

So here's a hell of a good "What If?":

What if the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor? What if they had only attacked places in the Western Pacific?

There's a very compelling argument that the Japanese could have won WWII if they hadn't given us the impetus to win by pissing us off.

Short version: Much of the US was isolationist. They didn't want to get involved in another huge war. Also, the future of naval warfare wasn't big battleships, it was aircraft carriers. But the naval hierarchy didn't like that idea, they even prosecuted Billy Mitchell over it.
If Japan had stayed in the Western Pacific, the US would have sent out the battleship fleet after the Japanese Navy. Who would have promptly sunk most of it. And instead of a "sneak attack" costing a couple thousand lives, it would have been a "fair fight" that would have easily cost tens of thousands of lives Battleships had about 2200 onboard. Sinking more than a couple of them in the open ocean would have had huge losses of life (The Prince of Wales and the Repulse were sank in the Battle of Malaya by air power).

Would losing a huge portion of the navy to the Japanese meant that the US would have lost the will to win the war? Without the anger and resolve that the attack at Pearl gave us?
It's entirely possible.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[lawrocket 3]

I may be different on this, but the Cold War is, in my mind, the most influential American "war." It is when America was at its peak, the US had a clear state enemy, and the best and worst was brought out.

Influence? Two superpowers who didn't obliterate each other or the world. The war was won through generally peaceful means. And we went from enemies to allies to sorta in between.

And look at what the Cold War brought us as far as advances in tehnology.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

wolfriverjoe

Ok, now you are starting with the "What If?" stuff.
Which is a rather different discussion.

Well if you won't let me use "What if"s, then I guess I would agree with GeorgiaDon. From an economic view, WWII was the most influential with the Civil War having lasting effects. But lawrocket does bring up some interesting points about the Cold War. What if (sorry I could not resist) the Cuba Missile Crisis had escalated.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

I certainly didn't say you couldn't use "What Ifs."
It's your thread, do with it as you wish.

But the question of which war would have had the most influence if it had turned out differently is a very different question.

One that my first answer (I could certainly be convinced otherwise) is the War of 1812.
The Brits lost, we sort of tied, the Canucks won.

If that had been different, it would be a very, very different world today.

Edit to add: If the Cuban Missile Crisis had escalated, we would have probably had a nuclear exchange of some sort. Very possible that we would have had "Armageddon."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[oldwomanc6 38]

Obviously, you don't think that WWII is the one, or you would have started this thread on Sunday.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[CanuckInUSA 0]

oldwomanc6

Obviously, you don't think that WWII is the one, or you would have started this thread on Sunday.

I thought I had made my opinion already that the 7 Year War (also known as the French Indian War) was one of the more influential wars, except that someone said I was playing the "What If" card and well yes my whole premise of the 7 Year War is based on "What if it had not been fought" and/or "What if the French had won that war". But if you want to talk about dates does September 1st, 1939 mean anything to you? LOL

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[RonD1120 58]

I chose the Vietnam War. That war taught us that we cannot trust our federal government and it divided our country.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[GD64 1]

RonD1120

I chose the Vietnam War. That war taught us that we cannot trust our federal government and it divided our country.

If you were looking with your eyes wide open, it also exposed the media biases. To include everyone's favorite back in the day, walter cronkite, which ultimately helped in a very large way to defeat America, in spite of that not being the case on the battlefield. Read General Gapp's memoirs if you have a problem with that statement.......he also addressed the USA media that bolstered and keep them (NVA) going in their darkest hours.
In the end the politico's to include JFK, LBJ didn't take the brunt of the blame.....That blame was placed on those crazy, fucking ,baby killing nam vets....so spit on them!

[RonD1120 58]

Totally agree.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 0]

To my analysis #1 on the list would be shared equally by the War of Southern Treasonous Insurrection, World War II and the Vietnam War, each for its long-lasting effects upon American society.

[RonD1120 58]

Andy9o8

the War of Southern Treasonous Insurrection,

You're trolling, gotcha.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

RonD1120

***the War of Southern Treasonous Insurrection,

You're trolling, gotcha.

The US Civil War and the Boer War had their similarities. They were different wars of course fought for different reasons. But in both cases the Confederate States and the Boer's fought for their way of life against an outside superior armed invading force (The Union States in the case of the Civil War and Great Britain in the case of the Boer War). Of course in both cases the Confederate States and the Boer's felt they were entitled to enslave the black population they controlled at the time and in both cases the Union States and Great Britain didn't exactly treat the blacks all that fairly themselves. Great Britain were the first in the Boer War to use concentration camps for not only the Boer population but also the blacks where a great many people died in these camps. Of course the big difference between Nazi Germany's concentration camps was that the Nazis wanted to kill the prisoners. With the British where many people died, it was strictly due to British negligence and incompetence. They didn't actually try to kill their prisoners, they just didn't seem to care when people did start to die.

Of course the USA had nothing to do with the Boer War, so I guess I am offside in bringing it up here. I only bring it up because it had many similarities to the US Civil War.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[champu 1]

lawrocket

I may be different on this, but the Cold War is, in my mind, the most influential American "war."

The Cold War has my vote as well.

For a more abstract answer... I think what has had the most influence on US culture is the number of poll options.

[cgriff 0]

wolfriverjoe

Interesting. I voted for the Civil War too, and when I voted, the page refreshed and Quade's comment popped up.

The thing is, the Civil War was about more than slavery.

I'm with wolfriverjoe here, and I would say he understated the "more than slavery" bit. The Civil War changed us from the United States (plural) to the THE United States (singular); a lamentable change that some of us are still fighting today. Slavery would have died anyway, but the gross expansion of federal power is a direct result of the Civil War and still going.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Canuck,

Quote

does September 1st, 1939 mean anything to you?

Yup, some would say it was the beginning of WW II.

Others may say that WW II began with the annexation of Austria; however, that was bloodless & the invasion of Poland definitely was not.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) And I did not Google the date.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

does September 1st, 1939 mean anything to you?

Yes. In its lasting popular-culture form, it's iconic of the fact that, sadly, July 7, 1937 and December 13, 1937 mean little to most people in the Western Hemisphere.

An alternative but equally factual answer is that that was the date of Germany's attack on Poland, only, through which England, its Commonwealth toadies and France started the European Theater of World War II by declaring war on Germany when they were utterly ill-prepared to do so, and thereafter spent years guilt-shaming the United States for not immediately bailing them out of having brought knives to a gunfight, after having spent the preceding 20 years sitting on their hands while Germany steadily acquired said guns.

[tbrown 26]

I had to think a while about whether it was the Civil War or WWII and had to decide it was WWII.
Politically and economically, the Second World War launched the U.S. as the undisputed world power for the rest of the 20th century at least.
At home, the War finally ended the Great Depression with full employment, and though there have been a series of recessions since then, we've never looked back. Not even with this very bad last recession.
Culturally, the peace that followed the war created the modern America we all grew up with. A whole generation of veterans got educations that had been unreachable for any but the rich in past generations. A whole new class of degreed professionals was created from the children of farmers and factory workers. People started moving out of their old, strictly ethnic neighborhoods. They met - and married other people who came from somewhere else. My all Irish dad from Queens, NY met and married my mom from Florida. He was a fireman's kid who joined the Navy, then used his GI Bill to become a banker and eventually retired as a senior vice president of a major Boston bank.
Finally, the experience of returning Black veterans to a country that practiced the same old segregation brought about the growing pressure to bring about meaningful civil rights and integration. Which is still not perfect, but has come a long way, because of returning veterans who simply wouldn't take it anymore.

The Second World War reshaped the U.S. into the modern country that it is today. We wouldn't even recognize the kind of backward country we'd left behind.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[SivaGanesha 2]

I probably wouldn't list it #1, but I would definitely put the Spanish-American War on the list. It was a seemingly minor war at the time (probably not minor for the people who served and were wounded or killed, though). Its influence was the fact that it is the war that gave us the base at Guantanamo. That base has had and continues to have a profound influence on contemporary US politics--generally IMHO for the negative--116 years later. That's influential even if the future influence isn't something that could have been predicted at the time of the actual war.

In terms of #1, I would probably consider it close to a tie between three other 19th century wars: the War of 1812, the Mexican War, and the Civil War. Those are the wars that, by and large, established the borders of the modern USA.

I would put the War of Independence a bit lower on the list, however. Despite the importance that we attach in the modern USA to July 4, 1776, the new nation hadn't really taken shape until the adoption of the constitution and the election of the first president, which didn't happen until after the War of Independence. The War of 1812 was the first war the USA fought as an established nation.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

SivaGanesha

...the Civil War...

Note that here the lasting influence of the Civil War I'm suggesting is the fact that it ended the existence of the upstart Confederate States of America, not the abolition of slavery. Civil War or not, international pressure would IMHO have eventually forced the CSA to abolish slavery which was increasingly being seen for the loathsome practice that it was/is--although it would have taken longer without Lincoln. But had the Civil War not been fought the CSA would today still exist and the world would be a very different place.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kallend 1,623]

WW1 was the war that established the USA as a world power. WW1 led inexorably to WW2, which made the USA a superpower and in turn led to the Cold War, Korea and Vietnam.

I vote for WW1 as the most influential.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.