California Bans Plastic Bags

[champu 1]

http://gov.ca.gov/news.php?id=18742
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB270&search_keywords=

As of next summer grocery stores and pharmacies are banned from distributing (giving or selling) plastic bags. Paper or compostable bags may be provided, but for no less than $0.10. The summer after that, the same goes for convenience stores and liquor stores.

Still allowed plastic bags are...

Quote

(A) A bag provided by a pharmacy pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 4000) of Division 2 of the Business and Professions Code to a customer purchasing a prescription medication.
(B) A nonhandled bag used to protect a purchased item from damaging or contaminating other purchased items when placed in a recycled paper bag, a reusable grocery bag, or a compostable plastic bag.
(C) A bag provided to contain an unwrapped food item.

Which covers my concerns... anyone else have thoughts?

[normiss 622]

Interesting to see they covered the weed issue.

[wan2doit 6]

Does a rule such as this really guaranteed to reduce the carbon footprint - using paper and more permanent totes that require washing, electricity, soap etc. ????

[champu 1]

I don't know how often other people wash their canvas shopping bags... maybe my wife and I are gross?

(actually did wash one recently when a bowl of fruit cracked and spilled all over the inside.)

I used to hang plastic grocery bags on hooks next to the garbage can in the kitchen to collect recyclables, but they've gotten so thin and weak these days that I've given up on them altogether. Now I use retail / hardware store bags that ae a little bigger and heftier for the same purpose. This law isn't getting rid of those.

[Shotgun 1]

champu

I don't know how often other people wash their canvas shopping bags... maybe my wife and I are gross?

I was thinking the same thing. I've had mine for years and never washed them.

I do sometimes get the plastic bags though. I use them in my trash cans and for cleaning the cats' litter boxes. Guess I will need to find an alternative.

[lummy 4]

It was just a matter of time. Quite a few cities have already banned them.

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[normiss 622]

That's an interesting point....what type of pet waste bags will they use now?

[JerryBaumchen 1,060]

Hi lummy,

Quote

Quite a few cities have already banned them.

And Portland, OR would be on the list.

I live in a suburb, Beaverton, OR and they are still OK here.

However, I think the handwriting is on the wall. Only a matter of time IMO.

Jerry Baumchen

[BillyVance 34]

normiss

That's an interesting point....what type of pet waste bags will they use now?

They'd have to buy those rolls of plastic bags at the grocery store. I'd rather reuse plastic grocery bags for that purpose.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[kelpdiver 2]

wan2doit

Does a rule such as this really guaranteed to reduce the carbon footprint - using paper and more permanent totes that require washing, electricity, soap etc. ????

I don't think these laws are aimed at carbon footprint, but rather than issue of garbage in the landfills and in that collection point in the Pacific where currents tend to push them.

Reaction to these sort of laws is a rational acceptance, and irrational irritation at being nanny'd, particularly the excessive 10 cent punitive tax, and a rational analysis that it's about 50% full of shit. But other nations went this route long before us.

I had a lot of reuse patterns for these paper and plastic bags.

plastic wrapped meat should continue to be bagged as well; it doesn't seem to be in the exception list. Sounds like a good way to spread pathogens.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

I think your meat example is specifically handled by this:

Quote

A nonhandled bag used to protect a purchased item from damaging or contaminating other purchased items when placed in a recycled paper bag, a reusable grocery bag, or a compostable plastic bag.

[wan2doit 6]

A serious as some (not all claimed catastrophic) environmental challenges are there may not be any truly good solutions out there.

I read a report on some fish scientists report to a very large group of scientists regarding banning fishing in large ocean areas. The scientist went into detail explaining that when government restricts one form of protein (e.g. fish) all that does is shift the product used to say (beef) which may have environmental impacts to habitat and water that are far worse than reducing fish stocks. Basically there is no free ride and a perceived positive change in one area will cause a negative repercussion in another.

So it seems that in the end one form of environmental impact or another has to happen in order for all of us to stay alive no matter what politically driven solutions but not really solutions are dreamed/scammed up.

Like many if not all government decisions that are based in incomplete narrowly focused analysis - the only way to understand them is to follow the money.

As far as bags in the Pacific go one PBS documentary on that showed there were many many more plastic items (toothbrushes, bic lighters - u name it) than bags out there. Will our brilliant government ban all plastics to really cure the problem even though fish already have plastic molecules in their dna or their flesh.

[DougH 270]

I remember reading something that similar bans resulted in people buying an equal amount of plastic bags, like trash can liners, and pet waste bags, now that they no longer had a free supply of bags from the supermarket.

So basically not net benefit.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Bolas 5]

DougH

I remember reading something that similar bans resulted in people buying an equal amount of plastic bags, like trash can liners, and pet waste bags, now that they no longer had a free supply of bags from the supermarket.

So basically not net benefit.

Another "free" multiple use thing being banned and replaced by a single use item that must now be purchased separately under the guise of protecting our environment benefiting corporations.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[turtlespeed 212]

Bolas

***I remember reading something that similar bans resulted in people buying an equal amount of plastic bags, like trash can liners, and pet waste bags, now that they no longer had a free supply of bags from the supermarket.

So basically not net benefit.

Another "free" multiple use thing being banned and replaced by a single use item that must now be purchased separately under the guise of protecting our environment benefiting corporations.

Technology is improving and biodegradable plastics are advancing.

@Doug - I very much doubt that the lobbyists from Glad/Hefty were upset at all to hear this passed. I would venture to guess they had quite a bit of cash flowing into getting it passed.

@Bolas - I think we(most regular people) will find a way to exist. We just need to stay away from the left coast.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 622]

You have a very valid perspective.
dammit.

Not you ... just what all this bs means.

[Bolas 5]

turtlespeed

@Bolas - I think we(most regular people) will find a way to exist. We just need to stay away from the left coast.

Austin has been doing something similar for over a year.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[turtlespeed 212]

Bolas

***
@Bolas - I think we(most regular people) will find a way to exist. We just need to stay away from the left coast.

Austin has been doing something similar for over a year.

Meh - We ignore Austin most of the time.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wan2doit 6]

Florida's loomin' to do it too. I don't know which state is worse but it's neck and neck between Fla and Calif.

[D22369 0]

hah, that was the 1st thing I thought of

Quote

what type of pet waste bags will they use now?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[skydiver30960 0]

normiss

That's an interesting point....what type of pet waste bags will they use now?

Fuck it, I just won't pick up the dog's turds anymore. The HOA can suck it, they can't make me BREAK THE LAW!

Elvisio "why lock away all that great fertilizer in a plastic bubble anyhow? " Rodriguez

[headoverheels 291]

DougH

I remember reading something that similar bans resulted in people buying an equal amount of plastic bags, like trash can liners, and pet waste bags, now that they no longer had a free supply of bags from the supermarket.

So basically not net benefit.

I never would use all the plastic grocery bags. They are of poor quality, usually not waterproof so cannot hold wet garbage. San Jose has already had that law for a while. I always have a stack of paper grocery bags in my car trunk, to take into the store with me and re-use. So far, I've only remembered twice to actually take them in!

[lawrocket 3]

wan2doit

Does a rule such as this really guaranteed to reduce the carbon footprint - using paper and more permanent totes that require washing, electricity, soap etc. ????

Gotta hand it to California. Let's take the most important environmental, ecological, economic and practical concerns facing California and say, "let's multiply them!"

[B]The paper bag is the worst possible environmental thing for California

Let's look at what goes into the production, shipment and use of the paper bag. Trees get cut down. Then they have to be processed into pulp. This takes massive amounts of water and chemicals. I don't know whether anyone is aware of this, but water isn't something Cali has a whole lot of right now. And that toxic stew has to be processed. Versus plastic bags, which use a fraction of the water for production and a fraction of the energy to produce. More CO2 emissions from production. (Plus the CO2 and methane sinks lost).

Then there is shipment. Compare the weight of plastic bags versus paper bags and thus the fuel requirements for shipping them is much more than per plastic bag. That means more CO2 emissions.

Biodegradable. Yes, paper bags biodegrade. And what do they biodegrade into? CO2, CH4, leachates. "Plastic bags don't biodegrade. They just stay there forever." EXACTLY! They don't decompose. You dig a hole and put a plastic bag in it and in a thousand years you have a plastic bag. It doesn't rot. It doesn't contaminate groundwater. It doesn't emit greenhouse gases. It just stays there, locking up the hydrocarbons practically forever.

[B]Cloth bags are better than paper. Kinda

Cloth bags are nice because they are reusable. So the production of them and transport isn't so big of a deal.

But they are also having their own problems. There are some odd effects being seen. One is that people aren't cleaning them and food-borne contaminants are getting people sick. People are reusing bags and putting veggies in a bag that held raw chicken a day before.

A second thing is retail shrinkage. People are hiding products in the bags they are taking in. Even CNBC has been reporting much increased theft in the wake of plastic bag bannings.

Then the reusable bags have to be washed. Again - water use.

Yes, reusable bags are great. I use them. But I also use plastic bags. Part of the reason I use reusable bags is because I don't want to use paper bags. Paper bags are probably fine in places with lots of trees and water where greenhouse gas emissions are viewed as fine.

But in Cali? I think this is more of the symbolism over substance because the big picture is far less important than doing something.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

Quote

Let's look at what goes into the production, shipment and use of the paper bag. Trees get cut down. Then they have to be processed into pulp. This takes massive amounts of water and chemicals.

Pretty sure California is mandating recycled paper bags.

As a lawyer you probably know that when your argument starts with a false premise......

[Bolas 5]

SkyDekker

As a lawyer you probably know that when your argument starts with a false premise......

...you're laying a trap.

(Gets popcorn)

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.