How can anyone say "God doesn't exist" ?

[quade 3]

normiss

I don't think that's always true.
Our "individual realities" tend to be based on life experiences in my opinion.
I have yet to see anything in my life experience to lead me to belief in any sort of "higher power".

And let's make it perfectly clear there is no such thing as an "individual reality" (yes normiss I understand you used irony quotes), reality exists independent of the observer. An individual only has a perception of reality. The earth is round whether the individual chooses to believe so or not.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

cgriff

***Sorry, that's simply not correct. Any dictionary definitions (yeah, I've seen them) that deem atheism a "doctrine" reflect a non-neutral bias in the authors, and thus are incorrect. At its purest form, atheism is not a belief, it is simply an absence of a particular kind of belief. It's no different than, say, an absence of any belief in anything like Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. That's not a "doctrine", or for that matter, or even a "belief" that those entities don't exist, it's simply an absence of any belief in the first place that such things exist.

People with religious or spiritual beliefs seem to have a defensive, almost desperate, need to define atheism as a form of "belief", and atheists as a form of "believers". I suppose that gives them some comfort. Nonetheless, at a core, foundational level, those definitions are simply not correct.

So, to your mind, what's the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?

An atheist is someone who lacks religious, spiritual or theistic/deistic beliefs of any kind. He sees no more reason to open his mind to the possibility of the existence a god, gods, spirits, etc. than he does to open his mind to the possibility of the existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.

A true agnostic says the existence or non-existence of a god, gods, spirits, etc. is unknown and probably unknowable, so he doesn't want to commit himself to any kind of belief or assertion of non-belief one way or the other.

A "social agnostic" is an atheist who, probably from hard experience, doesn't feel like being socially pressured to explain and justify himself every f**ing time he'd refer to himself as an atheist, so he just says "agnostic" as a more socially-acceptable path of least resistance.

[rehmwa 2]

Quagmirian

Any intelligent person will not say that God does not exist. You can say that you don't believe in God and that there is no evidence to suggest that you should.

this I'm good with
ditto vice versa -: intelligent person will not say that God does exist. You can say that you believe in God and that there is no evidence to suggest that you shouldn't

1st corrollary - I don't really care which side is right either, though I consider belief in a deity ---as a CONSTRUCT used by humanity to temper/mitigate social interaction in a more positive manner--- to be the most likely scenario. and one that's been misused over time as well for less positive effect... i.e., deity = a very powerful placebo when expectations are well meaning and defined correctly

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

RonD1120

"The Question" can be debated ad nauseam. The true answer is found in obedient behavior.

not at all - that is not the "answer", it's an effect

a more likely response is that it's a placebo effect. however, that doesn't diminish the results when the effect is a net positive on society

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Believe or don't believe, you still use faith to construct your world view.

Nonsense. That is exactly the kind of desperate twisting of logic and semantics, and circularity of argument, that I discussed above. Not interested in playing the game.

[jakee 1,255]

Quagmirian

Any intelligent person will not say that God does not exist.

Why not?

What else will intelligent people avoid stating? That we're not living in the Matrix? That toys don't come alive when we aren't looking? That the Lord of the Rings wasn't a documentary and that C.S. Lewis didn't own a real gateway to Narnia?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DanG 1]

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Believe or don't believe, you still use faith to construct your world view.

Those are fancy words, but they are meaningless. What faith do I as an atheist use to construct my worldview?

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In your reality, you decide what is good and evil.

Not true at all. The idea that morality can't exist outside of religion is completely false.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,400]

>Why not?

It's akin to saying "cold fusion does not exist." Such statements are quite likely to be proven wrong with time to some degree, and intelligent people realize this. A more intelligent person would probably say "the Fleischmann and Pons experiments did not reveal any power generation attributable to cold fusion" or the like because that's more accurate.

>What else will intelligent people avoid stating? That we're not living in the Matrix?
>That toys don't come alive when we aren't looking? That the Lord of the Rings
>wasn't a documentary and that C.S. Lewis didn't own a real gateway to Narnia?

I think they would say that all those things are very, very unlikely.

[Southern_Man 0]

maadmax

Quote

People with religious or spiritual beliefs seem to have a defensive, almost desperate, need to define atheism as a form of "belief", and atheists as a form of "believers". I suppose that gives them some comfort. Nonetheless, at a core, foundational level, those definitions are simply not correct.

Belief or non-belief in something issues up a set of criteria used to construct our individual realities. Believe or don't believe, you still use faith to construct your world view. In my construct I surrender to a Higher Power. In your reality, you decide what is good and evil.
...

Atheism is my religion the same way not collecting stamps is my hobby.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Andy9o8 0]

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Atheism is my religion the same way not collecting stamps is my hobby.

Ooh, I'm gonna steal that.

[Remster 24]

Andy9o8

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Atheism is my religion the same way not collecting stamps is my hobby.

Ooh, I'm gonna steal that.

He said he doesn't collect them. Not much to steal.

You'r not very bright for a lawyer...

Remster

[DanG 1]

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Ooh, I'm gonna steal that.

See!!! Evidence that atheists have no moral compass!!!

- Dan G

[muff528 3]

I wonder if non-collectors of stamps hold conventions where the politics and tenets of not collecting stamps is discussed and compared with that of stamp collectors. They might even attract protests by rabid hordes of hoarders of commemoratives ...or (shudder!) topicals!.

[muff528 3]

Andy9o8

.......

A "social agnostic" is an atheist who, probably from hard experience, doesn't feel like being socially pressured to explain and justify himself every f**ing time he'd refer to himself as an atheist, so he just says "agnostic" as a more socially-acceptable path of least resistance.

Kind of like a political "moderate". Works from either direction.

[Rstanley0312 0]

Not at you Muff... Just a general post.
I love science and I love God. I think many would have a problem with that statement. I am also okay with loving people that I know will never have faith in God. I learned long ago not all will believe. You have free will.... The choice is yours. I am going to show Christ through my actions and words. I believe He is showing himself to everyone in many ways. If you miss it or rather choose to dismiss it.... That is your choice. I'm okay with everyone not believing bc that is the way it is. That being said I'm comfortable discussing it as long as it does not get hostile. I find not many are capable of that.... Especially online. It is not my job to prove God. I want everyone to believe but it will never happen.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Andy9o8 0]

muff528

***.......

A "social agnostic" is an atheist who, probably from hard experience, doesn't feel like being socially pressured to explain and justify himself every f**ing time he'd refer to himself as an atheist, so he just says "agnostic" as a more socially-acceptable path of least resistance.

Kind of like a political "moderate". Works from either direction.

Not really. Moderates really do exist; in fact, I think they make up the majority of the electorate, despite Ron's apparent belief that they don't really exist.
I think it's more akin to skydivers who try to avoid mentioning to whuffos that they skydive, because they're sick of the same inevitable conversation over and over again.

[muff528 3]

Andy9o8

******.......

A "social agnostic" is an atheist who, probably from hard experience, doesn't feel like being socially pressured to explain and justify himself every f**ing time he'd refer to himself as an atheist, so he just says "agnostic" as a more socially-acceptable path of least resistance.

Kind of like a political "moderate". Works from either direction.

Not really. Moderates really do exist; in fact, I think they make up the majority of the electorate, despite Ron's apparent belief that they don't really exist.
I think it's more akin to skydivers who try to avoid mentioning to whuffos that they skydive, because they're sick of the same inevitable conversation over and over again.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that. Just trying to be funny. Probably a topic for another thread, but I think there are increasingly more folks who think they are moderates than there are actual moderates.

[jakee 1,255]

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I think they would say that all those things are very, very unlikely.

Then (for the majority of intelligent people) you're kidding yourself.

If you weren't already having a discussion about religion and you asked the average intelligent person if Narnia existed they would simply say no, and no-one else listening would think there was anything wrong with the response.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,623]

winsor

******The question was, "Does God exist?" To extend it to every other possible question is absurd.

You have it exactly backwards.

Let N be the number of claimed gods. (There may be some gods that are, as yet, unknown to us). Christians believe that N-1 of these are non existent.

Adherents.com claims to have figures for 4,200 religious groups currently existing on Earth.

Using the ratio of current population to the total number of people who have ever lived, we get an estimate of 63,000 religious groups throughout human history. (Only Homo sapiens' religions are being considered. It may well be that other hominids believed in god or gods, but it would be pure guesswork to estimate the number of gods they believed in.)

The modern dominant religions are monotheistic but they are few in number. Wikipedia lists 309 Hindu deities. The ancient Hittites claimed to have 1000 deities in their pantheon. So for a rough estimate of the average number of deities per religion, we'll take the average of these 3 figures, giving 440 deities per religion.

This gives an estimate of N = 28,000,000.

How many gods do atheists not believe in? Answer = N
For monotheists, the number of gods they don't believe in will be N-1, which, of course, will be very close to N. If the estimate above is correct, then (in some sense) atheists and monotheists only differ by 0.000036% in their beliefs.

I understood that there would be no math.

In Biblical math, pi = 3 exactly.

(See 1 Kings 7)

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[winsor 186]

kallend

*********The question was, "Does God exist?" To extend it to every other possible question is absurd.

You have it exactly backwards.

Let N be the number of claimed gods. (There may be some gods that are, as yet, unknown to us). Christians believe that N-1 of these are non existent.

Adherents.com claims to have figures for 4,200 religious groups currently existing on Earth.

Using the ratio of current population to the total number of people who have ever lived, we get an estimate of 63,000 religious groups throughout human history. (Only Homo sapiens' religions are being considered. It may well be that other hominids believed in god or gods, but it would be pure guesswork to estimate the number of gods they believed in.)

The modern dominant religions are monotheistic but they are few in number. Wikipedia lists 309 Hindu deities. The ancient Hittites claimed to have 1000 deities in their pantheon. So for a rough estimate of the average number of deities per religion, we'll take the average of these 3 figures, giving 440 deities per religion.

This gives an estimate of N = 28,000,000.

How many gods do atheists not believe in? Answer = N
For monotheists, the number of gods they don't believe in will be N-1, which, of course, will be very close to N. If the estimate above is correct, then (in some sense) atheists and monotheists only differ by 0.000036% in their beliefs.

I understood that there would be no math.

In Biblical math, pi = 3 exactly.

(See 1 Kings 7)

Sure serves to simplify things, eh? You need at least a 4-function calculator to get 355/113 (though a slide rule will give you the first 3 digits).

[maadmax 0]

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Those are fancy words, but they are meaningless. What faith do I as an atheist use to construct my worldview?

Not true at all. The idea that morality can't exist outside of religion is completely false.

I assume you have a "worldview". If so you have established it on the belief that some things are true and need to be included while other things are false and need to be rejected. I am sure we share many common values along with some divergent ones in the reality we have constructed for ourselves.

"Morality" to me the word embodies what is good and right. Most religions I know of are not what I would consider moral. In your system of morality who decided what is good and needs to be included and what is evil and needs to be rejected. Do you consider abortion moral, how about capital punishment, cheating on taxes, hedonistic behavior ?

...

[maadmax 0]

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Atheism is my religion the same way not collecting stamps is my hobby.

Ok, anybody who can decide God doesn't exist should have no trouble making a hobby out of not collecting stamps. But how does that work without using faith to convince yourself that you are actually doing it?

...

[Bolas 5]

maadmax

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Atheism is my religion the same way not collecting stamps is my hobby.

Ok, anybody who can decide God doesn't exist should have no trouble making a hobby out of not collecting stamps. But how does that work without using faith to convince yourself that you are actually not doing it?

...

Make sense now?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[quade 3]

winsor

You need at least a 4-function calculator to get 355/113 (though a slide rule will give you the first 3 digits).

Nope.

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The Chinese mathematician Zu Chongzhi, around 480 AD, calculated that pi is approximately equal to 355/113 (a fraction that goes by the name Milü in Chinese), using Liu Hui's algorithm applied to a 12,288-sided polygon. With a correct value for its seven first decimal digits, this value of 3.141592920... remained the most accurate approximation of pi available for the next 800 years.

Source: Arndt, Jörg; Haenel, Christoph (2006). Pi Unleashed. Springer-Verlag. ISBN 978-3-540-66572-4

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[champu 1]

I think the correlation function of peoples' interest in pi accuracy and peoples' understanding of its involvement in wave functions, transforms, etc. is definitely non-monotonic and only occasionally positive.