Sights on Rifles

[quade 3]

Help me understand something about rifles and sights. In particular as they pertain to modular weapons such as the AR-15. (see photo attached)

Why on top of the weapon forcing the shooter to cock his head over the stock in order to look through the scope?

Why hasn't somebody created a mount where the shooter's head can remain more or less level and straight?

ETA: Okay, I guess off set mounts -do- exist, but they seem much more rare than I would expect.

Advantages? Disadvantages?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

quade

Help me understand something about rifles and sights. In particular as they pertain to modular weapons such as the AR-15. (see photo attached)

Why on top of the weapon forcing the shooter to cock his head over the stock in order to look through the scope?

Why hasn't somebody created a mount where the shooter's head can remain more or less level and straight?

ETA: Okay, I guess off set mounts -do- exist, but they seem much more rare than I would expect.

Advantages? Disadvantages?

Think centerline of the rifle and what the trajectory of the bullet is. When you offset it you induce another factor to consider when you are trying to hit something out at different ranges.

[Skyrad 0]

If its offset when you put the weapon down theres a strong chance that you'll knock your sights out. Of course if you're on a range thats one thing, but in the field its a different matter entirely. Amazon is also bang on there.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[turtlespeed 212]

Skyrad

If its offset when you put the weapon down theres a strong chance that you'll knock your sights out. Of course if you're on a range thats one thing, but in the field its a different matter entirely. Amazon is also bang on there.

When a laser will do so much nicer?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

Amazon

Think centerline of the rifle and what the trajectory of the bullet is. When you offset it you induce another factor to consider when you are trying to hit something out at different ranges.

Hmmm...

So say the off set scope is 4 inches to the left of the barrel and I sight in at 100 yards and suddenly there is a target at 50 yards. I'm maybe two inches off target to the right. And if something pops up at 200 yards I'm maybe eight inches off to the left?

Hmmm...

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

quade

***Think centerline of the rifle and what the trajectory of the bullet is. When you offset it you induce another factor to consider when you are trying to hit something out at different ranges.

Hmmm...

So say the off set scope is 4 inches to the left of the barrel and I sight in at 100 yards and suddenly there is a target at 50 yards. I'm maybe two inches off target to the right. And if something pops up at 200 yards I'm maybe eight inches off to the left?

Hmmm...

If you zero it on dead on at any particular range... also how far above the barrel is the scope and at what angle or is it horizontal to the barrel.

[craddock 0]

I have Crimson Trace grips on a P226 which are a laser built in to the side so I have them zeroed at only I believe 10-12 yards. I don't really shoot it much and don't really use the laser when I did.

As a side note they are really kind of in the way. They make the gun wider and would make in print easy if you wanted to carry(I didnt get my ccw to carry) and also if you were using them your finger blocks the laser when you index your trigger finger. You have to lower your finger off the frame and depending how long your finger is this can be a issue. Pretty cool for showing wuffos though

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[champu 1]

In addition to the parallax that Amazon mentioned, this would restrict the ability to aim the rifle ambidextrously and it would move the CG of the rifle off-center which can make it a bit more clumsy. If you practice with it, the CG thing might not be that big a deal though.

With the different stock and mount options out there that allow for a range of heights you shouldn't need to crane your neck to look through an optic.

[chutem 0]

Try holding steady with a rifle 4" offset from your straight up head then try holding steady with you eye inline with the sights. I think you'll find it much easier in the standard configuration. Also most folks end up with an extra point of contact at their cheek (cheek weld) with in line sights allowing your line of sight to be repeated down the sights shot after shot.

As mentioned above offset optics or iron sights would be quite the "snag hazard" making it easier to knock them out of alignment or hang you up moving through space restricted areas in the field.

Throw in the added complexity of now figuring your offset on top of everything else involved in shooting accurately and I think most of us will stick with sights inline to the barrel.

I'm thinking some kind of set up with a micro camera and google glass or other glasses/goggles with a display is going to be the next "big deal", shoot from the hip or around corners with a perfect sight picture. I'd want to maintain some kind of standard sighting for the inevitable "tech failure", but it would be useful for police/military when it worked.

[rhaig 0]

quade

So say the off set scope is 4 inches to the left of the barrel and I sight in at 100 yards and suddenly there is a target at 50 yards. I'm maybe two inches off target to the right. And if something pops up at 200 yards I'm maybe eight inches off to the left?

Pretty much.

The downside is that it adds complexity to the distance adjustments. I own a romanian rifle with an offset slightly to the left. I don't find it a major issue because I don't shoot competition with it. I like to go hit the steel targets at the 250yd range. I zeroed the scope at 100yd (it's offset maybe 1.5in left). So at 250yd, with no wind to compensate for, the POI is left of the target. The steels I shoot are large enough, and the cheap com-bloc surplus ammo I shoot gives me a large enough grouping, that I really don't notice. But if I were to get picky about it, I'd have to dial in windage and elevation to compensate for distance.

It's really not that bad. You put your cheekbone on the stock (or on the pad on the stock) such that your face moves with the rifle stock (cheek weld) and having your cheek bone and eye out over the stock already, you're almost in-line with the centerline anyway. I put a custom pad on my stock so it feels more natural. I don't find it to be a big deal.

--
Rob

[kawisixer01 0]

I'm not sure what sight that is on that rifle, but it appears as though it could be a red dot site. One premier benefit to red dots is that they are relatively parallax free, as in you can shoot relatively accurately without being perfectly lined up with the sight picture. Typically red dots lack any magnification. they are there to replace iron sights and allow very fast target acquisition without having to refocus your eyes down the sight.

[quade 3]

kawisixer01

One premier benefit to red dots is that they are relatively parallax free, as in you can shoot relatively accurately without being perfectly lined up with the sight picture.

Huh? How is that even remotely possible?

1) "relatively parallax free" sounds to me an awful lot like "just a little bit pregnant." It's a binary state. It either is or isn't.

2) How can anything be accurate if it's not lined up?

Explain please.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

quade

***One premier benefit to red dots is that they are relatively parallax free, as in you can shoot relatively accurately without being perfectly lined up with the sight picture.

Huh? How is that even remotely possible?

1) "relatively parallax free" sounds to me an awful lot like "just a little bit pregnant." It's a binary state. It either is or isn't.

2) How can anything be accurate if it's not lined up?

Explain please.

I think you might need some range time there Paul...

[champu 1]

Red dots are not "parallax free." Their design allows them to correct for parallax very well at a range of distances over which they were designed to be used, but there's no magic trick to overcome trigonometry.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm

[wan2doit 6]

Yep, around the corner camera sights already here. Have seen it recently on a web site but can't remember to go back and get a picture.

Edit - this isn't what I saw a week or so but gets to the point

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010-05/invention-awards-soldiers-third-eye

[winsor 186]

quade

Help me understand something about rifles and sights. In particular as they pertain to modular weapons such as the AR-15. (see photo attached)

Why on top of the weapon forcing the shooter to cock his head over the stock in order to look through the scope?

Why hasn't somebody created a mount where the shooter's head can remain more or less level and straight?

ETA: Okay, I guess off set mounts -do- exist, but they seem much more rare than I would expect.

Advantages? Disadvantages?

The physics of marksmanship are all about keeping it simple. Complexity is anathema to consistency.

With the AR platform, recoil is straight line to the shooter's shoulder, which reduces recoil-induced variation of exit direction. The concentricity of the action internals is also well suited to accuracy.

Keeping the sight plane dead vertical allows windage to be removed from the initial equations - at short to moderate ranges, at least. The trajectory of the bullet follows an arc, crossing the line of sight twice going downrange.

Right out of the muzzle, the point of impact (POI) will be below the line of sight by the distance between the line of sight and the bore. If the firearm is zeroed for, say, 100m, the POI will be above the line of sight thereafter until gravity takes it back through the line of sight at some point downrange.

"Point Blank" refers to the white mark on a gunner's quadrant, pointe blanc in French, indicating no elevation correction for range. The faster the projectile and the better the ballistic coefficient, the farther out is point blank, whereby the procedure is simply aim and shoot. At extended ranges things get more complex and, to some extent, counter intuitive.

At any rate, the point of using sights is to improve accuracy. Placing sights directly above the bore directed at the point of impact has proved to be the most effective means of achieving that goal.


BSBD,

Winsor

[rhaig 0]

kawisixer01

I'm not sure what sight that is on that rifle, but it appears as though it could be a red dot site.

Nope. The rifle is a PSL with a PSO-1 scope. I pulled it out and it's not offset much. a little less than half an inch.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii191/Grantman_album/2-1.jpg (not my picture)

--
Rob

[craddock 0]

rhaig

***I'm not sure what sight that is on that rifle, but it appears as though it could be a red dot site.

Nope. The rifle is a PSL with a PSO-1 scope. I pulled it out and it's not offset much. a little less than half an inch.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii191/Grantman_album/2-1.jpg (not my picture)

I believe he was referring to the AR in that Quade posted since you didn't put up a pic in your post

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[rhaig 0]

craddock

I believe he was referring to the AR in that Quade posted since you didn't put up a pic in your post

ah... mine was just the lucky last post that he hit reply to.

oh well...

--
Rob

[BIGUN 1,055]

One can purchase an offset scope mount for most long rifles. The issue becomes one of "securely mounted." The more a scope sits solidly on the top of the rifle and the lower the profile; the less likely a small bump to the weapon will affect the shot group.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[craddock 0]

quade

***One premier benefit to red dots is that they are relatively parallax free, as in you can shoot relatively accurately without being perfectly lined up with the sight picture.

Huh? How is that even remotely possible?

1) "relatively parallax free" sounds to me an awful lot like "just a little bit pregnant." It's a binary state. It either is or isn't.

2) How can anything be accurate if it's not lined up?

Explain please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UIKH5GLpL5g

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[craddock 0]

kawisixer01

Typically red dots lack any magnification. they are there to replace iron sights and allow very fast target acquisition without having to refocus your eyes down the sight.

typically but here is a great option that gives 3x magnification that can be flipped to the side for 1x

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=944503&gclid=COnCrI77nr4CFYNcMgodAScAWA&is=REG&Q=&A=details

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Darius11 12]

That's why i have always loved the standard Iron Sites over all other sites.

It is much more intuitive for me and i have alwasy done better at the range up 200 yards.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DrewEckhardt 0]

quade

Help me understand something about rifles and sights. In particular as they pertain to modular weapons such as the AR-15. (see photo attached)

Why on top of the weapon forcing the shooter to cock his head over the stock in order to look through the scope?

Advantages?

The sight needs to be over the bore so it shoots to the same point horizontally even if you guessed wrong on the range.

Putting your head in physical contact with the rifle also allows for a consistent sight picture and provides another point of contact stabilizing things.

In all cases you put your cheek against the stock; and with the AR15 chambered in .223 you put the tip of your nose on the charging handle.